•rlnters, Manchester ; Harrow^ato, Yeador*, Heck-
o, and Gumberworth, Yorkshire; by Lord D.
ruin member* of the Suuday-sohool Sick and
M iy at B:>rlsden, county of Lancaster, against
auses of the Friendly Societies B ill; by Mr. JL i.
, against tale of intoxicating liquors on Sunday,
congregation of Primitivo Methodists in Groat
, and inhabitants of Chilton F diott, Wiltshire ;
slkeith, from miuister aul eiders of Kirk Session,
and Keir, Dumfriesshire; ministers and elders of
Haddingtonshire; minister of Kirk Session and
on of Renpont, Dumfriesshire; Kirk Sessions of
and Borthwick, Midlothian; New Grcy-lriars,
i ; North and South Leith, Leuohars, and Glass-
ifriesshirc ; Lady Yes ter’s church, Edinburgh : St.
L o ; Goskney, Duddingstone.and inhabitants cl the
parishes :--Siberton and Hawick, Roxburghshire ;
Midlothian ; Renicwick, Glenross; city of St. An-
icd parishes of Xirknewtnu, E* >tCalderaud Cuuon-
? ; parish and burgh of Dumfries ; by Mr. Hindley,
r, aldermen, and burgesses of Ashton, under cor-
tal, in favour of decimal coinage ; from Ashton,
*2,788 persons, against the Friendly Societies Bill;
md burial societies in borough of Ashton, viz., the
le Prosperity, the Good Samaritan,Die Industrial,
thropic, the Parish Church Sunday School, the St.
nday School, the Aneieut Shepherds, the Albion,
United Order of Odd Follows, the Ashton Hope, the
•tint* Female Arkists, the Wanderers Home, the
raid*, the Good Intent, the Female Florists, the
avemcnt, the Shepherds, the Original, the Perse-
rom Hyde, containing 2,144 signatures, against the
one from Taunton, Littleborne ; from the inha-
\.shton-under-Lyne ; overlookers and surveyors of
r aud Salford ; plumbers, tailors, Ancient Order
s, United Free Gardeners, aud boiler-makcra of
; gardener8, Manchester; by Mr. Cheetham,
and female members of the Middleton Burial
rotestant A sociation, Ancient Order of Foresters,
united societies, and various orders iu public
assembled, signed by the chairman, all
^bridge; against the Friendly Societies Bill,
iieywood, from the sick societies of Borrow-
cashire, the independent section of Iriendly
and from the Protestant Dissenters of New-
in, iu Middlesex, for onening the universities;
:>llemache, from Birkenhead, Winsford, county
, for closing pubiic-houses on Sundays; and
Society of Foresters, in the district of South
id Nantwie'n, against the third and fourth causes
ndly Societies Bdl ; by Mr. Starkie, from the va-
ifc societies of Clitheroe, signed by 1,400, against
lly Societies B ill; also from the ratepayers of
gainst the Friendly Societies Bill, signed by 210
t*y Mr. Townley Parker, against the section of
akers clause ia the Friendly Societies Bill, from
embers o? the burial clubs of Preston ;
Mure, from the Kirk Session of Gervan, Ayr-
nst the Education (Scotland) Bill ; also from the
of the parish of Beith, Ayrshire, against the
he Valuation (Scotland) Bill, which proposes to
¦ sonal property from the poor-rate assessment; by
ill, from the Liverpool Chamber of Commerce, in
10 bill to enable execution to issue in any part of
• m under a judgmout obtained in any court In
Scotland, or Ireland ; by Mr. Percy, from
kmen in the employ of Messrs. Bagnall,
*e, for closing public-houses on Sundays;
Dunlop, in favour of the Lord Advocate’s
Bill for Scotland, from the Free Church Congre-
almdlington aud Far He, Argyllshire ; Kilnairlie,
Dumfriesshire; and New Abbey, Kirkhead ; and
Friendly Societies Bill, from the boiler-makers
, Dumbarton ; by Mr. Adderley, against sale of
5 drinks on Sunday, from Irishford, Somerset,
st, Gainsborough school teacheis, EusongwolU,
Shrewsbury ; aud thirty other petitions from
•, with several thousand signatures ; by Mr.
from the county of Wilts, against iheTestamen-
ictiou Bill ; by Lord Goderich, against Friendly
Bill, from Hull, Manchester, Staithwaite, in
Dinting, and Moseley, Derbyshire.
HE FRIEN DLY SOCIETIES BILL.l
otion for going into committee upon this bill,
UNCOMBE suggested to the honourable gentle-
?mber for North Wilts (Mr. Sotheron), who had
his bill, that it would be much better to refer a
lie delicate and painful nature embraced by the
3ct committee, especially as he saw that notice
ven of a great number of amendments. He gave
to the honourable gentleman opposite for the
ich he had introduced this bill, but it was at the
he fact that there never was a greater oommo-
st the working clavses than that which it had
3HT hoped that the honourable gentleman op-
1 accede to this suggestion. The bill in its pre-
ould not work at all, and the only result of
ould bo to crcate the greatest poasiole dissatis-
ngst the operatives of the north of England, who
deeply interested in this subject, and were de-
losed to this measure. It was one of the most
jects that could come under the consideration
3b because it involved, not only the personal in-
tho feelings of hundreds of thousands of people,
lat it could not be satisfactorily discussed in a
of tbe whole house, he would move that it
derred to a select committee,
IE said that he had heard such statements with
e manner in which some of these societies had
d, and in which their funds had been dissipated,
ught it would be desirable to refer to the select
not only the consideration of the present bill, but
fttion of the wholo aubjoct.
TON EGERTON said that lie had never during
years seen moro excitement ia the mauufsc-
r e r n m d D t n lrc a tfy ln~ tm o f n u ltic lc u t f ijfo r m n tio n to
enable them to legislate with effect. There were many prin
ciples in the clauses of the present bill which had excited
the greatest jealousy, and which must probably be altered in
committoe, but this was a matter wholiy distinct from tho
question of consolidation.
Mr. H IN D LE Y protested against the inference which had
beeu drawn iu some quarters from the return presented re
lative to mortality amongst children as a libel upon the cha
racter of the working classes of this country. The return
itself was manifestly imperfect, but it by no means war
ranted the suspicions spread on this subject, or the accusa
tion which had been founded on it, and he should regard any
legislative act conceived iu this spirit as an insult to the
working classes.
Viscount PALMERSTON was prepared to assent to the
proposal which had been wade by the honourable member
for Lewes, to refer this bill to a select committee, with the
view undoubtedly of securing a fair and satisfactory investi
gation of the subject. There were several questions arising
out of it, which might with advantage be submitted to tho
examination of a committee, some of which had been touched
upon by the right honourable gentleman opposite (Mr. Hen
ley), or l»y his honourable friends near him. The tirst of
these undoubtedly was, whether it would be expedient or
useful to consolidate all the laws relating to this subject.
This was a proposal attended certainly with considerable
difficulties, as suggested by tho right honourable .'{eulieman,
but it was a fit subject for consideration, one, perhaps, more
belonging to the Government than to a comuiittce, but on
which a comuiittce might be useful, as showing all tho inconve
niences, whatever they might be, which arose from the multi
tude of statutes, and the uncertainty of their application
to any one particular case. With respect to the general
regulations of those friendly societies, of course the report
of the committtcc which sat some years rgo would be re
ferred to any committee that might be appointed, and it
would have the benefit of tho inquiries of the former com
mittee, w hich would, to a certain degree, supersede further
inquiries, or direct them into tko proper course iu which
such inquiries ought to be conducted. The point, however,
which had laid the foundation of the various proposals now
bofore the house, was tbe question of the regulations appli
cable to burial olubs [hear, hear]. That was a very painful
subject, and one on which he had much rather avoid
stating his opinions. He would only say, that the return to
w hich his honourable friend adverted did not bear out the
conclusion drawn fr*m it, because it simply stated that there
were no means of ascertaining, with respect to the deaths of
certain children, whether the parties did or did not belong
to burial clubs. Upou that question he was asked, iu
the early part of this session, by a noble lord oppssite,
whether it was the intention of her Majesty’s
Government to bring in any measure affecting it.
He had then stated it was bis intention to do so ; at the same
time, when the honourable gentleman opposite (Mr. Sothe
ron) brought in his bill, and his honourable friend proposed
an amendment to it, that, appeared to him sufficiently to sa
tisfy the purpose which her Majesty’s Government had ia
view , and he dropped the intention of bringing in any sep*-
rite bill. He must say, however, that hiB own opinion w r as
so strong upon that point that if no ether member w ere to pro
pose to the house any legislation upon the subject, he should
himself feel it his duty to do so [hear, hear]. So far from
concurring with his honourable friend in thinking that any
legislation ou the subject was an insult to the lower classes,
he thought, on the contrary, that the honour of the country,
the credit of the lower classes, their dearest personal and pri
vate feeling-*, were coucerned in placing it beyond the possi
bility of doubt or imputation that any such suspicions r.s
had lately prevailed in this matter could, by any possibility,
be founded iu fact [hear, hear, hear]. And, there
fore, in the interest of the lower classes, and with
the view of consulting their honourable feelings, and rescu
ing them from imputations which bad, not of yesterday only,
but for a long time back, prevailed upon that subject, he
thought some legislation was absolutely required ; and he
should think it his duty, if the committee wero not ap
pointed, in another session to propose some further enact
ment on that subject [hear].
Mr. M ILES expressed his satisfaction at what be had
heard from the noble lord, and was glad that his attention
sbouM be direoted to this subject.
Viscount GODERICH thought if the Government were to
bring in any other measure there would not be tho slightest
U 5e in referring this bill to a select committee. He could
bear testimony to the excitement felt on this subject through
out the country ; and it did appear extremely hard that for
the purpose of preventing certain evils which might have pre
vailed possibly in agricultural districts---|no, from the Op
position]. He was perfectly sure that evils of the kind al
luded to did not occur in large societies; and it appeared ex
tremely hard that, on this account, restrictions should be in
troduced which would cripple the utility of nine societies out
ef ten.
Mr. COBDEN said it appeared to him that the observa
tions of the noble lord the Secretary for the Home Depart
ment were defective in one important respect. The noble
lord stated his resolution, his unalterable determination, to
legislate on this matter, and intimated that he had facts on
which this legislation would be founded, but that they were
too painful to be communicated to the house. Now, heap-
preheaded that what they had to do there w fas to consider
what was just towards the community at large, not what was
delicate to the house, or to the feelings of the noble lord ;
and if he bad facts which would warrant the insertion of the
clause they were now discussing, he thought that, in justice
to the people of this country, tbe noble lord was bound to
state those facts.
Viscount PALMERSTON : I beg thehonourablo member’s
pardon ; I did not slate anything about facts [hear, hear]. I
said that I would rather not state my opinions [hear, hear].
Mr. COBDEN would then, if the noble lord would allow
him, infer from vrU & t he a w s*Ld that the noble lord dis-
solidated those acts, the operations of the societies ror in
surance would be materially interfered with, the )>owers as
te the extent of insurance differing considerably. The bill
secured existing societies in the possession of all rights an I
privileges now enjoyed by them, and he was afraid they
could not go beyond this. Ho felt sutisQed that there would
bo no disposition iu any quarter to shelve the present mea
sure, as at the close of this year all the acts relating to friendly
societies would expire, and therefore it was indispensable
that some legislation on the subject should take place. It
would be unadvisable that the whole extent of the subject
should be investigated by the committee, as ono wider in its
dimensions could not be eonceivcd, and a full inquiry, he
did sot hesitate to say, would find a committee in occupation
from that time up to next Ohristius* ; but the object in view
would be fully attained by seudiug the bill before a com
mittee for examination. The existing law, he was glad to
think, had answered admirably, as under it more than 5,000
societies had been registered, and it had not been thought
desirable to introduce many new provisions into the present
measure, though some had been rendered neeessRry by
change of circumstances, by new difficulties that had arisen,
or by new descriptions of investment which had sprung up
with the expanding industry and enterprise of the country.
Upon some points now introduced for the first time, and
particularly the veiy gravo one to which allusion had been
made that day, he was highly desirous that the
committee should have full means of inquiring, and
if no other member proposed it, he would himself move
that they should have full powers of sending for persons and
papera. The object of the measure might bo stated gene
rally to be the same as that of the former act, the facilitating
p .s much as possible the formation of provident associations
of this excellent kind, without imposing any other restric
tions than might bo necessary for their maintenance and
security. He believed It impossible to overrate the magni
tude of the interests involved in this question, or the extent
of the benefits which wero conferred on the community by
such associations when judiciousty conducted. To estimate
this he need only point out that whilst, according to tho last
census, the total number of the male inhabitants of the
country was 9,000,000, the n u m b e r of registered friendly
societies known to exist was above 2 0,0 0 0, and that
of the unregistered might be taken at 10,0 0 0, each of
which comprised from 150 to 300 members ; so that, multi
plying 30,000 by the minimum of 150, the result would be
that nearly half the whole innlo population of the kingdom
were in some way or other interested in these associations
[hear, bear]. In conclusion, he would express his full as
sent to the appointment of the committee.
Sir G. R. PECHKLL expressed his thanks to the honour
able member, on behalf of his constituents, for the great pains
he had taken in mastering this extensive and important
subject.
Mr. W. BROWN concurred in the meed of praise offered to
the honourable geutleman the member for Wiltshire. Having
himself been the foreman of the grand jury at Liverpool
on the occasion referred to, he would only observe that it
was never intended to cast the smallest reflection on friendly
societies, which were generally composed of the most re
spectable of the working classes, to whoso feelings every con
sideration was due.
Mr. COWAN suggested that great injury was often
done by the wasteful misapplication of thft funds of
these societies in expensive processions and dinners, and
that the provisions of the bill directed against
such abuses should be made more stringent. He en
tirely concurred in the observations made by preceding
speakers, as to the benefits which his honourable friend op
posite (Mr. Sotheron) had been the means of conferring on
the working classes of the country, and he trusted the sugges
tion he ha l made would meet with the attention of the com
mittee.
Mr. I. BUTT said he had been entrusted with several
petitions from members of the working class m reference to
this bill, who felt a strong objection to the 34th clause, which
proposed to give one half of the penalty to a common in-
| former arising from any violation of the act [hear, hear].
He thought that would he introducing among the working
classes a system of espionage, which would go far to destroy
the character of the English.
Mr. BONHAM CARTER thought it would net boat all
desirable that it should go forth that the house was disposed
to treat this subject in a spirit of moddling tegislation. He
believed the working classes were well satisfied with the
treatment of this question by his honourable friend (Mr.
Sotheron); and he thought such a question might be much
better dealt with by a private member, to whom there was
much greater access, than it could be by a member of the
Government,
The motion for referring the bill to a select committee was
then agreed to.
HUSTINGS EXPENSES BILL.
Mr. HUM E, in moving the second reading of this bill,
reminded the house that in Feb., 1834, after the first general
election succeeding the passing of the Reform Bill, a select
committee was appointed to inquire into the charges made
by returning officers at elections, and that that committee,
after having fully investigated the subject, made a report to
the house in which they recognised the broad principle that
persons returned to that house as the representatives of the
people should be returned free from all expense. The ob
ject of the present bill was simply to carry out that principle,
so far as respected the expenses of hu«ti*gs at elections;
and he begged to move that it be read a second time, think
ing, after the experience of the last general election, the
time had come when they ought to act upon the principle
laid down by the committee of 1834.
Mr. PACKE, without passing any opinion upon its merits,
suggested that tho second reading of the bill be postponed,
in order to its being referred to the committee now sitting
on a kindred subject, namely, the expenses of candidates at
elections.
Mr. PH IN N trusted the honourable member for Montroso
would press the ftftopad reading of the bill. The house was
It was quite possible that out of three county candidates
there might be one very weak of purpose, and yet as strong
in argument aud in tbe hold he had on tho constituency as
tho other two ; but if the county was a large one the ex
penses of hustings and polling booths would probably amount
to a sum which might prevent him standing as a candidate.
Under these circumstances, and as a mode hod been sug-
gMteti of meeting the objections taken to the bill in its present
shape, he hoped the house would affirm the principle of tho
bill by voting for its second readiug.
Sir BEN J AMIN n ALL concurred in the suggestions made
by tho honourable member for tho Went Riding, but
tbo«e suggestions ought to form the subject-matter of tho
bill, and not be introduced in the shape of clauses iu commit
tee. lie therefore thought the bill ought to be withdrawn,
with the view to another being introduced which should con
tain those safeguards which a bond fd c candidate ought to
ha*, a in bis favour. He remembered an election in Maryle-
bont, when there were 16,000 electors on tho register, and
when a gentleman who came forward, and was proposed and
seconded, only polled one [hear, hear], a course which sub
jected him (Sir B. Hall) and his colleague to all the expeuse
aud annoyance of tho election, they not thinking it ex- I
podlrnt that the candidate who had only polled one
»h» I t be called upon to pay his quota. On an
other occasion of an election, when the constituents
h«d rinen to 2 0,0 0 0, just before the nomination a person
came forward and threatened to oppose his hon. colleague
(Lord D. Stuart) and himself ; and the oniy way in which
t'.M opposition was get rid of was by the returning officer in*
nisting on each candidate giving, before tho clcction, a cheque
or proper security for his portion of the necessary and le^al
expenses ; the result being that the party from whom the
threat of opposition came decliued to give either cheque or
security |a laugh]. Ho tUoueht some security should be given
before going to a poll that any lonA fid*, candidate should
not be prejudiced hy any fictitious candidate.
Lord PALMERSTON confessed that he was not very much
disposed to support the bill. As a general principle, he ad
mitted it was desirable to limit the expenses of the candi
dates at elections as much as possible. But if it were possi
ble to relieve candidates from all expenses connected with
elections, the honourable momber hud applied himself only to
that which constituted the smallest portion of the expenses ;
it would go but a very little way towards the establishment of
his own principles, and would relieve tho candidate but from
tho smallest portion of the expenses, and leave him exnosed
to the real magnitude of the costs of elections for largo bo
rough* and cou*tics. Either the expense from which tbe
honourable membor proposed to relieve the candidate was a
small one or a very considerable one ; if small, the object ef the
bill would obviously not be accomplished ; and it large, it
was but fair to consider whether it was right to saddle large
expenses of this sort upon the county or borough rates.
It had been suggested that in order to prevent vexatious and
frivolous contests a can lidate should be required to pay
his ]k>rtiou of the expense^ unless he polled a certain pro
portion of tho votes recorded at the poll. Now there would
be a great deal ef difficulty in carrying that measure into
practice. Some prooortion must be fixed upon for the pur
pose, and it might happen that a really bond fide candi
date, who meant to offur himself for the choice of the elec
tors, might, by aomc accident, fall short of the proportion
fixed upon ; and upon tbe other hand, if the proportion was
a sma'l one, it would not accomplish the purpose of exclud
ing vexatious contests. He thought the hon. member would do
well to accede to the suggestion which had been made, and
withdraw bis bill for the present, and endeavour to
introduce another, combining some of the suggestions which
had been thrown out by honourable members. Such a bill
would, he hud no doubt, receive due consideration by the
house. If tho honourable momber persisted in his motion
to divide t ho house, he should feel it his duty to vote against
the second reading.
Sir G. GREY concurred in the advice given as to the with
drawal ef tho bill, but was opposed to tho various sugges
tions which had been proposed for embodiment in anew mea
sure having the same object iu view. He objected in toto
to the principle of tho bill, and to the words contained in its
preamble. He thought it was a mast ungracious tiling for
the representatives of the people to sit in that house, and to
attempt by legislation to transfer from c'neir own shoulder*
to the public those charges connected with elections which
they had hitherto defrayed themselves [hear, hear]. But even
if the principle were a sound one, that the country should
bear the expenses of the elections, the proposed bill would
not give effect to the principle, for the charges from which it
was sought to relieve candidates bore but a very small pro
portion to the general ex ponses incurred at elections [hear,
hear]. He thought it was unnecessary and absurd for the
house to record the principle that honourable members
ought not to pay the expenses of voting aud polling booths at
1 eleccions. He could not agree to the assumption that the
bill, if passed, would tend to encourage contested elec
tions, nor could he concur with those who thought a
j stop should be put to what had been called vexatious
t contested elections. He thought that if a man could find a
proposer and seconder among a constituency, he had a right
to go to the poll, an 1 tue house had no right to say that he
should be subjected to a pecuniary penalty because he could
not find a certain proportion of the constituency prepared to
! give him their support.
Mr. BARROW opposed the bill, on the ground that it
would throw upon persons who were not entitled to vote a
portion of the expenses of elections, in which they were pre
vented from taking any part.
j Lord ROBERT GROSVENOR expressed his entire con
currence in the principle of the bill. He believed that every
t bribery bill would be useless unless they consented to pass a
j bill protecting candidates from hustings and other legalised
expenses connected with elections.
Lord H. VANE did not consider that tha evil was one of
sufficient magnitude to call for the proposed remedy, and he
should feel it his duty to vote ftgVmst the secoud reading of
the kill.
. s n f n w r j r t o pa** rroni m a.
point, he thought this measure, as it stood, would have the
effect of giving a parliamentary sanction, as it were, to a
number of persons who were not, perhaps, qualified in the
manner in which persons ought to be qualified, who ought to
enjoy the benefit and privilege of a parliamentary sanction
in the way of a registration. No doubt, the object
ought to be to register those medical practitioners
who were duly qualified, by education and attain
ments, to follow their profession ; but lie did not
think this bili would accomplish that object. It would
register a number of persons who had obtained their diplo
mas from a multitude of bodies, many of which w rere not
well qualified to givo diplomas that ought to be a proof of
the qualifications of the persons who held them. He was
quite aware that the condition of the medical profession did
require some considerable iaiprovomout [ he^r, bear]. It was
a sort of chaos at present, and bewildered any man who gave
his attention to it with the view to provide a romedy for
the existing evils. Besides, a reference to the great body of
the medical profession would not very much advance "any
person who had the subject of its improvement in view, for
it might happen—as in fact it had happened to himself—that
one day he might receive a deputation of practitioners who
assured him that the whole profession was perfectly agreed as to
the advantages of a particular measure which they placed in his
hands, while on the very next day he might find that a very
large portion of the medical profession entirely differed from
those from whom he hail received that communication. But
nevertheless he thought there wera some general leading
principles which mi<rbt guide them in dealing with the me
dical profession. He said it with great deference, but as
far as the matter had been brought under bis consideration,
he should say that what they wanted w.is some uniform sys
tem of education, and some uniform test of qualification in
the different branches of the profession. At the present
moment there were, he believed, twenty-two different bodies
entitled to give diplomas, aud, as had been stated in tue
course of the debate, some of those bodies lowered their
fees and their standard of examination in order to
outbid the others, aud the result was, that many persons were
practising who were not competent to perform the duties
which they had undertaken to discharge. He would be
happy if he could be able, on communication with the leading
members of the different branches of t^e profession, to pro
pose to Parliament some measure that at least would lay the
foundation of au improvement in the medical profession. He
could not pretend to say at present that he was prepared
with such a measure, but he thought a part and consequence
of that general arrangement would be a system of registration
[hear, hear]. He thought a System of registration would be
# 1 . _ 4 . f c f • 1 . • •
^ — v w — - m . m . V V I V m m • » a w v u V ( I I I V I ( 1 1/ * V »
attention, ond he should be glad if, in connection with those
in the refising trade, he could devise a plan to take interme
diate drawbacks. If that could not be done in the present
bill, perhaps power might be takeu, by order in Council, or
by ordor of the Treasury, to allow intermediate drawbacks
on the varieties of sugar in the market [hear, hearj. He
was free to admit that the whole yalue of the measure de
pended not on the words of the act of Parliament, but 011
the actual standard fixed. He had taken the pains to put
himself in connection with practical men, to ascertain what
would be a proper standard. He did not mean to say ho was
now ready to fix the standard, but he w r as ready, with the
assistance of tho refiners and East and West India merchants
who might make representations through members of the
house, to consider the question, so that they might fix a
standard which would be fair to the various ^ parties in
terested .
Mr.^ HANKEY said the honourable member for Lan
caster’s proposal to make one uniform duty was an extremely
unsatisfactory mode of levying the duty to importers of
sugar from the West Indies. They felt that the duty ought
to be levied on the gross quantity of saccharine matter which
tho sugar contained, and on that principle had contended
for refining in bond. An approximation towards that prin
ciple was now offered by her Majesty’s Government; it
would be received as a boon by the West India body ; and
he begged ou their behalf to thank the Government for it.
He hoped they weuld fix a standard which should give the
benefit to which he alluded.
Mr. SANDARS asked whether the extra malt duty would
be levied on all stock on hand, and whether allowance would
be made for screening ?
Mr. WILSON said the increased duty would be levied on
all holders of malt of every description. An erroneous im
pression had cot abroad that it would be levied on the large
consumers snd not on the dealers. Such was not the case.
As to the allowance, he believed 3, 4, or 5 per cent, would
be allowed for screening.
Mr. HEN LEY wished to know if it w *as to be understood
that private persons were not dealers?
Mr. WILSON should perhaps have said factors. He did
not suppose the Excise officers would follow small dealers.
He might mention that, as au additional security, there
would be a clause in tho bill which would enable the officers
to require the factors and dealers to state on oath what
stocks of malt they had on the day the resolution waa passed.
Mr. DUNLOP was not quite satisfied with regard to the
point as to molasses. If it was the case that the resolution
carried the other night really did include molasses, no injury
would be done by leaving out these retrospective words. The
honourable gentleman (Mr. Wilson) said it was to prevent
w W m M •» C- --- ------- ^ w
of advantage to the profession, aud to the public at largs ; 1 ------ —- — \ —..................... ^ .,-0
but this bill put the cart before the horse, and made tho con- | disputes, but disputes were more iikely to be caused bv put-
sequence the preliminary to the cause. Ha was therefore * u retrospective words, contrary to the usage of Pariia-
disposed to support the amendment.
Mr. N A PIE R said, that the bouse having sanctioned the
second reading of this bill, he did not think it was a very fair
course to oppose the motion tor going into committee. The
noble lord seemed to have somo :^ea in his mind regarding
a uniform plan of giving medical certificates or diplomas.
How wai that notion to be carried out ? Did the noble lord * * * ; ; „ »
mean to convert all the institutions which now granted di- 1 Mr. H A N K EY hopeu that the honourable member would
plomas into one great medical university ? He admitted not d'vhle the house. Nobody could possibly have been
that diplomas should only be given to properly qualified per- ponged. He would venture to say no bo ly had paid a dif-
sons ; but that object could only be effected by means of an fereut duty than they would have paid under this resolution
improved system of education ; and wore tho people to be l*-ear* hear]. He had not the smallest doubt the bead of the
left in the hands of quacks until such time as Parliament Customs had taken cure to inform every one what would be
ment. He should be very unwilling to divide the house, but
they ought to adhere to tho ordinary form of these resolu
tions [hear, hear].
Mr. A LEXA N D ER HASTIE said, as to molasses being
sugar it was all nonsense. Molasses were always scheduled
separately and distinctly. If his honourable friend divided
the house, he should feel constrained to vote with him.
should find itself able to establish a better system of educa
tion ? He hoped the house would proceed to consider the
bill in committee.
Mr. BRADY briefly replied ; and after a few remarks
from Mr. H U M E, *1 y ’» V r. -
The house divided, when there voted—
For going into committee
Against it
Majority H U H
The bill was consequently lost.
THE SUGAR DUTIES.
Tue house having resolved into committee of ways and
means, Mr. Bouverie in the chair,
69
118
•— 49
the proposed rate1 of duty, and that proposed rate was under*
stood by every one to include molasses as part of the ordinary
classes which were scheduled in all acts relating to sugar.
Instead of facilitating, the alteration of the resolution would
embarrass the Custom House, by raising a doubt as to the
object and intention of the resolution already passed. He
was quite sure nobody in the trade had beeu deceived, and it
would only be misleading the public connected with the
trade if they implied any doubt as to what ought to be the
course taken by the Custom-house officers. If there was any
doubt it must be settled by the law officers of the Crown ; it
could not be settled by a resolution of the house.
Mr. HUM E sbserved that invariably from the passing of
the resolution the Customs were warranted in levying the
Mr. WILSON said it would le recollccted that on Monday tluties. It would be dangerous to admit the precedent that
eveniug several honourable gentlemen opposed the new scale a resolution of the 1 0th would justify their collecting du-
of sugar duties proposed by the Governmeut, ou tbe ground ties on the 8th and 9th, and therefore 'he should propose to
that it would not be fair to bring it into operation before strike out the words " from and after the 8 th of May.** A
the 5th ot July, and that on the following even ng the Chan- I retrospective vote was not consistent with the character of
nf t.hp KvehprtiiAr cnlmiittari h lawinv on i ^ _____ ____
cellor of the Exchequer cubmitted a resolution levying an
additional duty of 15 per cant, on the sugar duties as they
now existed. On that occasion there was one duty which it
was impossible to fix in the same way as the others—the duty
on sugar for the use of brewers. He now proposed to pass
that resolution. It simply made the duty on sugar intended
the house, and he would certainly divide upou the question.
Mr. WILSON said, in the preseut state of the house, if
he opposed the alteration, probably ou a division they would
discover there was no house ; he should have the resolution
thrown over to another supply day, and, therefore, lose two
. - . - - - a— 7 " --- . days’ more duty. The most discreet plan he supposed was to
for brewing purposes to correspond to the duties which the substitute tbe 10th for the 8 th. He was quite ready to-trust
house had already passed with respect te other sugars. The to the state of the law for the twe days’ duty.
n flifir FAortltifm n u h in li hfl iv u lto ii t c n litn !I f wi M 4 TT T O 1T 13 T * __• t. _ j a., i_____• 1 ? t____ ___ _ *
» - W — — — w — — -- --- ¦ —--------------- — ¦ - ^ ^ w w w V V . W . « w
other resolution which he wished to submit to the committee
merely applied to molasses the same relative increase which
was pronosed upon the duties 911 sugar.
Mr. HUME said the bouse had passed an act declaring
that the duties on sugar should remain at a given rate until
the 5th of July, and he did not think they had any right to
aid 15 per cent, to those duties before that time. He
thought they ought to be very cautious not to violate ex
isting laws in which other parties were concerned.
Mr. HANKEY asked the Secretary of the Treasury to ex
plain raorc clearly than the Chancellor of the Exchequer
iiad done, whether they proposed to make any alteration in
. T — — ----- ~ g m ^ ~ w j w
Mr. CRAUFURD wished to know if they were to under
stand that molasses were not included in the two days?
Mr. HUME understood that if the Customs were right in
their interpretation of the law, molasses cleared on those
two days would be liable.
The words “ on and after the 10th day of May, 1851,” were
substituted for 44 from and after the 8th day of May, 1854,”
and the resolutions were then agreed to, and ordered to be
reported to the house on Friday.
The house having resumed.
Mr. FRENCH gave notice that on going into Committed of
Supply, on Friday, he should put a question to the First Lord 9 f I ^ ^ w 9 M ^ j | bm v U t l v VI1 • m I » Vi V %% \ | V i V o vi V tl v VIS V JL 11 9 % A A y 1 vl
the staudard of quality of sugars ia their amended scale of of the Admiralty as to the transport of the 1st Royals by the
dutiea ?
Mr. WILSON said he mie:ht state in a few words the dis
tinction which they proposed to make in the new scale of
duties. The house was aware that almost the only com
plaint at the present lime in regard to the operation of the
existing law was this, that tho scale of duties did not operate
fairly with respect to tho various qualities of sugar. The
producers of low sugars complained that, although no-
tuiiftally they paid the name amount of duty as the producers
of the higher qualities, yet in reality they paid a
Andes.
The house then adjourned, at balf-past five o’clock.
Lord Goderich was prevented by indisposition
from voting in favour of tho Chancellor of the Exchequer’s
resolution for the iucroasc of the malt tax.
Mr. Warner was accidentally shut out from the
division on the malt tax, where ho would have voted with
the Oofammeut.