THE MORNING CHRONICLE, THURSDAY, MAY 11, 1854.
’ERIAL PARLIAMENT.
U S B O F C O M M O N S — W r d n h m a y .
so cuet at twelve o’clouk.
PRIVATE BUSINESS,
?burgh Improvement Bill was rand a third time.
PETITIONS.
i were presented by Mr. Milligan, from various
Ancient Shepherds in the Bradford district mid
crested, from tho various lodges in the Pud-
ot and other® interested, from various lodges
fowling district and others, and from the
diKtrict, against the Friendly Societies Bill ;
ad field, from the boiler-makers of Sheffield and
ibers of the Prote9taut Association, also from
of the Sheffield district of the National Indepen-
• of Odd Fellows, prayim* for an amendment of
ily Societies Bill ; by Mr. Brotherton, from the
of the Manchester district of the ancient order of
(8,230 signatures), the member* of St. George's
inanity lodge, Captain Trafford ledge, Tanners'
d Britannia lodge of Independent Odd Fellows
c!es district, against the Friendly Societies B ill;
Gore Langton, from the friendly societies of jour-
>opers, operative aia^ons, operative carpenters aud
xbinet and chair makers, and from the principal
thiity-seven friendly societies iu Bristol and the
hood, against the Fciemlly Societies B ill; by Mr.
•m the commissioners of supply ot the county
ness, against the Lord Advocate's Education
I from the Free Church cougregation of Olug.
and Lyboter, in the same county, in favour of the
klr. Digby Seymour, from 196 of the wituesses
before the HuU Bribery Commission, play
house not to sanction the disfranchisement,
e petitioners regard as a violation of pub-
as well as an act of private injustice; and
ysden, in the county of Lancaster, against the
Societies Bill ; by Mr. Hamilton, from the parishes
y, Tourley, Hornlcy, El wall, an 4 Kirk Langley,
bbey, aud Bxrlow, Derby, against the sale of
ag drinks on Sunday ; from the clergy and
:s of Bath, and of the diocese of Cashel, in
in support of scriptural education in Ireland;
dnes, from the guardians of the Sunderland union
uardians of the parish of Alston, in favour of
ublio-houflc> and beer*shoiw on Sunday; by Sir
oodman, from the medical practitioners of Leeds,
e bill for the registration of the medical profession ;
ise, from the Society of United F*ee Gardeners of
igainst the Friendly Sooie’ies Bill ; by Mr. Patrick
From the inhabitants of Birr, in the Kind's county,
e appointment of a committee on conveutual esta-
,s ; by Mr. Leveson Gower, from the members of
i Staffordshire order of Foresters, against clausos of
ily Societies B ill; by Mr.Sullivau, fromBallyoaskel,
ilkenny, against the Nunneries and Mr. Whiteside’s
*Ir. Brown, from the boiler makers of Derby, Shelton,
tewton-le-Willows, Birkenhead, Liverpool, Burn-
rood, St. Helens, Chester, Blackburn, Bury (Lan-
Rochdale, Crewe, Stockport, Smethwick, North-
eston, Warrington, Manchester, Halford, Wigan,
Portsmouth, Brighton, London, fiawarden, Ren-
Is, Swindon, Bristol, Bradford, Deptford,Wo!verton,
Butterley, Northampton, and Southampton, r.gainst
idly Societies B ill; by Mr. Kers1 aw, from the
if Stockport, Oheadle. Handforth, Wilmslaw, Hasel-
unty of Chester, Stockport district of United Free
s, Preston ditto, Mowbray, county of York, ditto,
ditto, Rosse and Gilbert ditto, Upton, Derbyshire,
litto ; by Mr. W. Wickham, from the members of the
dges in tho Horten district and other parties Inte-
benefit societies, from lodges in the Wilsey district
n the Bradford district, from the Bradford district of
Aeners, all in the West Riding of Yorkshire, agaiust
dly Societies Bill ; by Mr. Milner Gibson, against
d&uses in the Friendly Societies Bill from the
0 Society, Manchester ; stonemasons, 8alford ;
?roe Lodge of O ld Fellow*, Manchester; Vic-
dge of Old Fellows, Manchester ; Lancasteriau
Society, Fails worth ; Friendly Society public
held at the Corn Exchange, Manchester ; and
gates appointed by 750 members of burial clubs,
. Lancashire, Cheshire, and Yorkshire ; by Mr. H.
from the dean rural and clergy of the deanery of
ion, in the outdeanery of Cornwall, and the diocesa
p, that publio-housea be cloned on Sanday ; by Mr.
•u, from the order of Recbabites, Blackburn, against
lauses of the bill to regulate friendly societies ; from
id United Order of Odd Fellows, Blackburn, to the
»ct; by Sir William Smijth, from the pa rah of
1 Prisons, Essex, for closing public-houses on Sun-
Mr. Cobbett, frcin the inhabitant* of Oldham, nu-
signed, against the Friendly Societies Bill; also
> waggon-makers of Manchester, from the Burial
> f Chaddertou, the Odd Fellows of Hollins wood, the
:ers of Manchester, the Free Gardeners of Saddle-
id the Free Gardeners of Oldham district, to the same
t Mr. II. G. Liddell, from the inhabitants of Allendale,
lorthumberlahd, in favour of closing public-houses ou
by Mr. W /J. Fex, from various benefit societies in
against Friendly Societies Act; and from parents and
of tho children in West Bromwich Sunday-schools,
ling the universities to all denominations; by Mr.
from the congregation of the district of Christ-
I I*. 1 1___
taring districts, than had been created by tho introduction
of this bill. There was a general feeling that it dealt hardly
with many existing societies. The law with regard to
friendly societies was at preseut such a mass of confusion,
that he thought it was highly desirable that the select com
mittee should consider the whole subject.
Mr. BROTHERTON also supported the reference to a
select committee.
8ir GEORGE G R E Y <*aid that he had no objection to re
fer the bill to a select committee, but he did not think it was
desirable that they should enter upon the investigation of .
the whole subject ; for tho house must recollect that there 1
had been several previous committees of inquiry into friendly ;
societies, and that they had obtained all the information j
upon the subject which could possibly be elicited by a new i
inquiry. The only effect of thus extending the labours of
the committee would be to defer that legislation which every
one admitted to be required. It was the less necessary to do
so, because he observed that most of the petitions which had
been presented were directed against the 4th and 5th clauses
of tho bill. Now lie saw that the honourable member for
North Wilts (Mr. Sotheron) proposed to omit the former
clause, and very materially to modify the latter.
Mr. WILSON PATTEN hoped that the bill alone, and not
the whole subject, would be referred to the select committee.
Mr. ROEBUCK observed that the bill had in fact now
passed from the hands of its original promoters into those of
the Government, and he therefore wished to know what were
their views with respect to the course which the house should
pursue? . j
Mr. FITZROY aaid that the honourable and learned mem
ber was not quite correct in stating that the bill had passed
into the hands of Government. The only amendment of which
he had giveu notice referred to the 3d clause. He thought
that no case had been made out for a chance in tho law
upon the point embraced in that clause ; and his amend
ment consisted simply of a clause taken from the existing
act 14 and 15 Vic. c. 15. This bill had do doubt created
great uueasiucnS amongst the members of those clubs ; and
although the petitions which had been presented abundantly
showed that great ignorance prevailed with respect to its
provisions, still when there was suon an excited state of
feeling on the part of great numbers of the working classes,
he thought it was advisahle that satisfactory evidence
Bhould be adduced in support of any proposed alterations in
the existing liavr. With a view to such an Investigation, he
thought it was highly desirable tbat the house should adopt
the proposition to refer the whole subject to a select com
mittee. He was aware that there had been previous com
mittees and previous legislation on this subject; but the fact
was that this had only complicated the subject, and made
legislation more difficult.
Captain SCOBBLL said that even in the quiet neighbour
hood lie represented (Bath) the working classes were very
much excited on the subject of this bill. He hoped that the
house would adopt the proposition of the honourable member
for Montrose (Mr, Hume), and refer tho whole subject to a
select committee.
After a few words from Mr. CH EET H AM , who suggested
tbat the select committee should be directed to consolidate
the law on this subject,
M »*. LIDDELL also bore testimony to the strong feeling
which this measure bad excited amongst the labouring
classes, and supported tho proposition to refer it to a select
committee.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said fhat it seemed to be generally
admitted that the house w*Q not at present in a position to^
go into committee upon this bill. lie thought that, consP*
dering the nature of tho subject, the parties who were in
terested, and the character of the interests involved, it would
be advisable the subject should receive the most mature con
sideration before they passed a uew act, and he should there
fore support tho proposition for referring the bill to a select
committee. At the same time he hopeu that the committee
would not be made the meai*g of delaying that legislation
upon the subject which all admitted to be necessary, but that
they would strictly car,fine their inquiries to those points
upon which sufficient information had not been elicited by
former inquiries.
Sir J . W ALM8LEY supported the amendment.
Mr. ATHERTON said that so many acts had been passed
with reference to these societies, that nothing could bo more
difficult for a practising lawyer than to tell the members of
many of them by what particular act they wore governed, or
even whether they were not exposed to the cross-lire of two
contradictory acts. Under these oircumstauces, it was abso
lutely nocessary thnt the law on this subject should bo con
solidated ; and os he believed that this could not be done
without further information than was in the possession of the
house, he hoped that the whole bubject would be referred to
a select committee.
Mr. HENLEY said that, after what had fallen from the
honourable and learned member for Durham (Mr. Atherton)
—the correctness of whose statements he was not at all pre
pared to deny—it was perfectly cleer that this subject was
one which should be taken up by Government. A pri
vate member might introduce a bill^ to provide a
remedy for an existing evil; but it was perfectly
impossible that he could undertake to consolidate a
multiplicity of previously existing statutos, and to prepare
one which should embrace the whole law on the subject.
It would bo quite impossible to bring in a bill to consolidate
all the statutes on this subject during the present session.
The question, then, was—was information wanted on this
subject? He very much inclined to think that there
were very few cases which did uot come within one or other
of the categories respecting which evidence was taken several
sessions a«o. It was at his honourable friend’s discretion
claimed haring any facts at all [a laugh, and 4t no, no/'from
Lord Palmerston], Would the noble lord admit that?
Viscount PALMERSTON No [hear, hear].
Mr. COBDEN : Then I suppose it would be unparlia
mentary in me to say tbat I think tho noble lord is trifling
with the house in the course he now pursues.
Viscount PALMERSTON : I do uot admit that [hear,
and a laugh]. ' - w
Mr. COBDEN was sorry to see anything like a jocular
spirit manifested on this point [oh. ohj, and must remark
that he thought the noble lord had been particularly unfor
tunate iu his attempts at jocularity. This was no laughing
matter. He said that to countenance suoh suspicions as had
prevailed in reference to this .subject was to throw a slur on
the character of the working classes, and if it were a stigma
on their character, it malt oe a roproach to tho whole
nation. Were they to have foreign newspapers casting in
the teeth of Englishmen that they were obliged to pass
laws to prevent pareats from murdering their children for
the sake of £3 ? They had heard of the practice of destroy
ing children as prevailing in India, and amongst our friends
the Turks too, but iu no country or people, however bar
barous, had it been customary to murder children on such
grounds a3 were imputed in tho present case, and nowhere
had it been found necessary to pass a law to prevent parents
from murdering their children under ten years of age, in
order to obtain a few shillings or pounds.
Viscount PALMERSTON : The hon. member means to
impute to me that I treated this subject with jocularity* I
appeal to tho house if anything I said could in the slightest
degree bear out so unfounded an accusation [cheer*]. I said,
on the contrary, that it was with the g re a tent puiti I ap
proached it [cheers], and if the house laughed when the
hon. member was endeavouring to impute to me, time after
time, the very reverse of what I had stated, all I said was
to deuy that his interpretation of my words was well founded.
The honourable member put words into my mouth which I
had never ua*d ; I was obliged to say I had not uaed them,
and the house only laughed at the various attempts of the
honourable member to fasteu on me languago which I eu-
tirely repudiate [cheers].
Mr. CROSSLKY only rose to say that, having received
various deputations during the recess on the subject of
frieudly societies, he had some acquaintance with tlie feel
ings prevaleut among the working classes oil this subject.
There could be no doubt that some imposture had been
practised upon these societies in the matter adverted to by
the noble lord, and the working classes, he had no doubt,
would be glad to have any provision inserted In t U e bill
which might render the commission of such offences impos
sible in future.
Mr. SOTHERON need scarcely say, in referenda to the
suggestion made, that he was in the bands of the he ami
should be ready to acquiesce in what seemed the g. neral
feeling of the house, not to press forward the bill <»u the pre
sent occasion, but to refer it to a select committee. The
principal point on which the discussion had turned was one
of a character which lie thought would be much h Uf r dis
cussed in a select committee than in the house. It might
be that the Government had evidence enough regarding the
suspicions of which they had heard much, as to infanticide
being extensively practised by members of buiial societies ;
but although a g<cat deal of evidence bad been taken by the
committee which sat in 1849 respecting burial societies
generally, yet he was sure there was no such impression
abroad generally, and that there was nothing in the puVlic
mind which in any way corresponded with what lie believed
to be the impreshiou in tho mind of the Governnitnt. If
there were indeed facts which would be adduced lo auhilan-
tiate such a horrible suspicion, if more than a pro
portionate number of persons guilty of this dreadful
crime could be found amongst members of burial eluhaor
friendly societies, then let the evidence to that e(T»ct
be brought forward, and let a committee of the
house be armed with the full powers necessary to elicit the
facts. One fact that occurred to him in connection with the
subject was, that at the assizes of last autumn, in Liverpool,
tho grand jury made a presentment c ill;ng the attention of
the court to the increase of this horrible crime, and the pre
siding judge thanked them for their presentment, giving an
opinion that some further legislation was required ; hut the
very day afterwards a person who was charged with the crime
was tried and found innocent. If they were force I to tho
conclusion that a disposition to this crime was lo some ex
tent fostered by friendly societies, then no doubt lo. illation
would be required ;but the question remained beh n I—what
was tho best mode of doaling with the subject? Persona join
ing friendly societies were the most provident and industrious
of the working classes, aud the real reason which induced poor
men to join burial clubs was that they might themself rs have it
in their power to defray the charges of funerals In Iheir house
holds, iustead of leaving them to the poor-law officers [hour].
Was that not a sentiment which should be encouraged in the
minds of worthy and industrious persons of tho working
classes? What made legislation on this subject urgently re-
3
uisite was, that it was apprehended that all societies of this
e.scription not registered were at present acting illegally, and
liable to penalties under the Joint Stock Compamea Act. It
was a peculiar feature of the case that regulations benefiting
one society were found totally inapplicable or even adverse
to the interests of another, and thus the difficult? of doatiug
with it was materially enhanced. Another difficulty a as
that they were dealing with purely voluutary associations,
and the very moment they put ou the screw in the direction
that Parliament thought desirable, the associatiow would at
once be dissolved. If they were to deal with the subject
effectively, they must carry along with them the public
opinion of the community. An honourable and learned
-----4 1_________ t______1 __________ ____ 1 _ .1--» i k * ---- ---f _________ i:.i _
, *ow called on t* affirm an important principle, namely,
i that persons coming there to discharge a public duty, as
representatives of the peonlo, were not to be put to any ex
pense for that purpose. With respect to the suggestion just
made for po«tponiug the second reading, he could not see
what connection there was between the subject under con
sideration by the committee upstairs and the present bill.
That committee were not sitting thero t© decide any ques
tion of principle, but how a principle affirmed by the house
was to be carried out. He £ave his cordial support to the
measure of his honourable friend (Mr. Ilurae). At present
they had persous coming forward at elections as candidates
who had not the support of any great portion of the consti
tuency [hear, hear]. Tiioy appeared on the hustings
and delivered their sentiments, which they found were
not re-echoed, except iu* great part by that portion
of the constituency who had no votes; a«d then
they were checked from going to the poll by
the circumstance that they would have to pay a consider
able amount of expense [hear, hear]. lie thought, however,
it would be desirable to introduce a clause of this kind into
the bill—that if a person put himself forward as a can
didate, a.id put the constituency to expense, he should pay
his proportion of the expenses in the event of his not having
the support of a given number of the electors. He moved
last yoar for a return by the different returning officers and
sheriffs of the suras the3r charged candidates at elections, and
that return disclosed a system of extortion to which it was
high time the house should put a stop. He knew in one
borough that ho much as £25 had been charged a candidate
by a returning officcr as his fee—a sum which he (Mr.
Phinn) had not the slightest hesitation in saying was per-
fectly illegal. He knew also th*t in the county in which
the horough he represented was situate a charge had been
made to the candidates for the payment of special consta
bles employed in keeping the peace, which was a most
improper and illegal charge, seeing that the sheriff was
bound to preserve the peace of the county. There
had long been a feeling out of doors, but which he was glad
to see was diminishing every day, that persons presenting
themselves for election to tbat house were soliciting for some
great tangibie good to themselves. He thought the sooner
the public mind was disabused on that point the better.
Mr. DEEDES said he was one of those who were anxious
to s*e the expenses at elections reduced, so far as it could
possibly bo done ; but he thought there was a great deal
that was objectionable iu the present hill, and he doubted
whether, as a matter of principle, it could be altered iu com
mittee. He would aucgest to tue honourable member for
Montrose that it should be read a second time, on the under
standing that it should go before the committee now aiding
up-stairs on a similar subject, for tho purpose of having
taken out of it sueh portions as they might think worthy the
consideration of the house.
Mr. HUM E said he did not know when the committee up
stairs would be likely to mako their report to the house.
Mr. W. M ILES said, as an old county member, it was his
conviction that this bill, instead of reducing the expenses of
bona fide candidates at elections, would add to them very
cousideiably, inasmuch as its tendency would be to increase
the number of sham candidates. At pre«ent £40 was about
the expense to w rhich eaoh candidate nt a county election was
put foe hustings and polling booths, and he thought the bill
W8i perfectly uncalled for.
Sir GILBERT HBATHCOTE wished to add his testimony
to that of the honourable gentleman who had just spokon.
He had had great experience at county elections, aud hi*
opinion was that this bill, so far from diminishing the ex
penses at elections, would greatly increase them. Its ten
dency would be to induce parties to present themselves as
candidates at elections on very light grounds, and the conse
quence would be that there would be an infinitely greater
number of contests than at present.
Mr. HEN LEY said he *us desirous of seeing the expenses
at elections reduced, but ho believed the effect of the bill
would be absolutely to impose a fine of from £300
to £500 at least on every county member, ac
cording to the si*9 of the county he stood for.
There were few persons who had stood on a public hustings
at an election that did not know that individuals presented
themselves, and were proposed » » s candidates, who had no
intention whatever of going to a poll, and only for the
purpose of making a speech on some popular subject. What
would happen if the sheriff had not some guarantee th*t
some person or other should be answerable for tho necessary
expenses? After tho show o T hands, he would be obliged !o
put in operation the whole of the expensive apparatus for
taking a poll in every polling place in his county, though
thero was not a human being in the constituency that did
not know, that, bo far as one of the candidates was concerned,
the whole thing was a sham fight from beginning lo
end. That Wua tho ayat^ra which this bill would encourage.
Again, it a t as suggested that the hustings expenses at elec
tions should bo thrown nvion the poor-rates. Ho thought no
thing could be more objectionable or unjust than that [hear).
Ho did not believe the country could have a better safeguard
against the pretensions offlham candidates than wns afforded
by the existing system, and he hoped the bill which proposed
to disturb it would not be kept alive.
Mr. COBDEN thought the mode of meeting the evil of
sham elections had been suggested by the honourable i*nd
learned member for Bath. He (Mr. Cobden) was of opinion
that it would be easy to frame a clause which would meet the
cane put by the right honourable gentleman (Mr. Henley),
Let it be provided that in case a candidate should not poll
one-tenth or one twentieth part of the constituency, or some
other proportion, he should pay his own quota of the
expenses, which were nowr paid by all the candidates,
....rl Atw l umntfl ha nnt trt ahftm /inntPfttsi. H a
Mr. W ILLIAM S supported the motion for the second
reading.
Mr. Il:ime was about to reply, when he was called to order
by the Speaker, th e s e s of the house not permitting a reply
in the case of tho mover of tho resolutioa when uo amend
ment bad been nroposed.
Mr. SPOONER therefore moved that the bill be read a
second time tbat day six mouths, and
Mr. HUM E proceeded to reply to tho objections which
had been made against the principle aud proposal of his bill.
The house afterwards divided, wheu there appeared for the
amendment—
Ayes ............. 154
Noes ..... 4.............. s. .., 57
Majority 9i
The bill was accordingly lost.
M EDICAL PRACTITIONERS (No. 2) BILL.
Mr. BRADY presented a large number of petitions from
various parts of the kingdom in favour of this bill. The hon.
member then moved that the house should go into committee
en the bill.
On the motion being put,
Mr. CRAUFURD moved as an amendraeut that the house
should go into committee on the bill that day six months.
His opposition to the bill wus founded on the fact that it
was defective in principle, and, instoad of being progressive,
was retrogressive. It was iujunous not only to the medical
practitioner, but to the public at large, aud without amend
ing the Uw, which it proposed to do, it would only confirm
the existing anomalies, and increase the difficulties of the
present state of the law. All that the bill really proposed
to do was to create three new places and give increased pa
tronage to the Government. The medical profession in Scot
land was decidedly opposed to tho bill, and he believed that
the Lord Advocate had also expressed opinions decidodly
unfavourable to its further progress.
Mr. W ARN ER seconded the amendment.
Colonel DUNNE supported the motion for going into com
mittee. The bill met with the geuerat approval of the medi
cal profession iu Ireland, although in that country he was
bound to say its provisions were less required than in England
[hear, hear, and laughter]. In Irelaud the medical profession
occupied a high position, but he would much rather place
himself in the hottest part of an action thau place his life in
the hands of those licensed to murder in this country [laugh
ter]. He trusted, therefore, that the house would not agree
to the amendment.
Mr. PHINN hoped the house would conseut to go into
committee on the bill, the whole object of which was really
to give the public tho means of ascertaining whether persons
practising as members of the medical profession had re
ceived the necessary amount of education which such per
sons ought to be supposed to possciB. At present the pub
lic were victimized to a serious extent by quacks, and this
bill, if passed, would tend in some degree to put an end to
that disgraceful and injurious state of things. lie admitted
that there were several points in the bill wbich might be
made the subject of discussion and of amendment in com
mittee ; but while ho thought the measure was eue that
ought to receive the assent of the house in its main princi
ples, he should regret if it were considered to be a final set
tlement of this question. Some arrangement for the regu
lation of the medical profession, of a much more compre
hensive and important character, was imperatively re
quired ; but the bill before the house was at all events a step
in the right direction, and, therefore, he should give it his
support.
Mr. H EN LEY said he had aoine difficulty in discovering
what really was the principle of the bill. He did not think
its only intention was to make a list of doctors qualified ac
cording to law; ho rather expected, from the way in which
the concluding clauses and the schedules were framed, tbat
It was intended to give some discretion to the parties charged
with the registration as to whom they were to put into the
list. In fact the bill appeared to him to be an attempt to set
up a very extensive machinery to tax every doctor in the
country, and to put upon Government the not very enviable
task of selecting three doctors to bo the objects of the ani
madversion of t/ie w hole profession [hear, hearj.
Mr. LASLETT supported the amendment.
Mr. D IG BY SEYM OUR approved the principle of the bill,
but thought there were several amendments which might be
judiciously made in committee. The object of the measure
was not to create any new (lualification, or to disqualify any
person who was already qualified by law, but to euable the
public to ascertain who had aud who had not received a
proper professional education.
Lord PALMERSTON said he rose to perform that ungra
cious duty which the honourable and learned member
for Bath had said he was sometimes in the habit of
discharging ; hut he did not know that he could
quite concur with the honourable and learned gentleman
in thinking this bill one of the innocents; on the contrary,
he was inclined to think that, if it were to have any effect
at all, it would be rather mischievous thau innocent. But
he must beg, in th* first place, to defend the medical pro
fession of England from tho charges and imputations brought
against them by the honourable and gallant member for
Portarliugton. He was happy to think that that misappre
hension on his part as to the merits nnd qualifications of the
English medical practitioners must have arisen from a cir
cumstance in which they all of them must greatly rejoice,
namely, the enjoyment by the honourable and g.nllant mem
ber of the most perfect health [a laugh]. If the honour
able and gallant gentloman had been visited by auy
of thoae constitutional maladies which sometimes af
flicted members of that house, and prevented them
from attending to the discharge of their legislative duties,
V * a liHil uniirvl.t m l t»» in 1 .nn nr liei! fln/l fn flica
larger duty, inasmuch aa the article they pro
duced did not yield the same. amount of saccharine
matter, and consequently of refined sugar, as that
produced by the other parties. Now, he readily as
sented to that statement; but the question was, how lo re
medy the evil. The Government had been strongly urged
to allow* refining in bond ; but there woro so many objections
to that system, tbat the Government had resolved not to
adopt it, at least iu the meantime. They hud determined,
in the first place, to attempt to equalise tho duties up >u a
different plan. At the present moment there were three
scales of duties applicable to colonial sugars—the first, 10s.
ncr cwt.; the second, 11s. 8d. ; and the third, 13s. 4d.
With regard to foreign sugars, the act of 1S43 provided
tor four scales. There was a scale, in the first place,
for a quality below brown clayed; becondly, a scale
for a quality equal to brown clayed; thirdly, a scale for
white-clayed ; and fourthly, a scale for refined. The duty
on the lowest qualities of foreign sugar had never been ap
plicable to colonial sugars; ar.d what they proposed was to
attach a duty of 12s. per cwt, to the great bulk of
yellow aud tho best quality of brown colonial sugars,
and a duty of lls . to the lowest qualities, thus
making a distinction which had uot hitherto been mtide.
By that means they hoped to remedy the evil of whicft
complaint was made. Upon the consideration of protect
ing the revenue, aud making a fair appovtiouraeut of duty to
the amount of saccharine matter contained, it was intended
to modify the standard of white-clayed sugars [hear, hear].
With regard lo the lowest scale (which would be charged
with lls. duty), or sugars of a standard not equal to brown
clayed, it was a very low standard, and therefore admitted
only a very small quantity—last year, he believed, only
9,000 out of 390,000 tons consumed. The Government pro
posed to raise that staudard considerably, so as to let in a
considerable portion of West India sugars not let in by the
preseut standard. The chief object of tho alterations would
be to modify the standard iu such a way that each quality
might pay duty in proportion to the real quantity of saccha
rine matter contained.
Mr. GREGSON was understood to express an opinion in
favour of one uniform duty on all clashes of sugar.
Mr. DUNLOP trusted the Government would, in the
event of the differential rates of duty, according to qualityv
being carried, also consider whether differential drawbacks
could not be allowed [hear, hear]. With respect to the
words in the resolution, (i from and after the 8th day of
May," he objected to giving it a retrospective operation.
On Tuesday night they had passed a resolution
in which 15 per cent, was added to the duties on sugar, and
nothing was said about molasses. The resolution now
proposed, therefore, became necessary ; but according to all
precedent, which it would be unwise for the sake of two
days to disturb, iucreased duties took effect from the date
when the resolutions were passed.
Mr. HUM E was not aware, until now, that the omission of
mo1 asses had taken place, but lie remembered a similar
omission with respect to the timber duties for one day, and
all transactions in tho particular class of timber omitted for
that day were free of duty. He did not believe it possible
they could pass a resolution on the 10th to come into opera
tion on the 8th. Supposing individuals, knowing of the
omission, had in the two days purchased molaases, they were
not to be fined in the duties for the negligence of a Govern
ment department. He therefore objected to the 8th standing
in the resolution.
Mr. W ILSON did not think it was absolutely necosvsary to
propose this separate and distinct re.^dutiou in order to in
clude molasses, because the resolution passed the other
night declared that certain additional duties should be levied
on sugar, and in every act for regulating the duty on sugar
molasses were treated as sugar. The Commissioners of Cus
toms held themselves justified by the terms of the resolution
of Tuesday night in including the duty of molasses in that
of sagar, but that there might be no dispute he proposed
this resolution. Had that not been the case he should have
yielded immediately to the suggestion made, but as molasses
had always beeu treated as sugar, and as th« Commissioners
of Customs considered molasses a description of sugar, he
thought the house would feel no difficulty in passing the re
solution in the form proposed.
Mr. HEN LEY said .the real question wag, not what was
the opinion of the Commissioners of Customs, but whether
without this resolution they could introduce into the act of
Parliament power to levy duty on molasses. There could be
no doubt it was understood the 15 per cent, was applicable to
all kinds of sugar and to molassea, and if the power of levy
ing it on molasses could be introduced iuto the act of Parlia
ment there could bo no difficulty.
Mr. W ILSON Baid there could be no doubt about that.
The Commissioners ef Customs had been already advised that
they could collect the duties, aud had collected them.
Mr. HEN LEY was very glad the Government had under
taken to modify the scale, but thought it was very desirable
full notico should be given as to the mode in which they
would modify it, because it was a matter of importance to
parties interested that the house should not be called on to
come to any hasty decision. He was one of those who re
garded the modification of the scale as a tardy act of justice
to a certain proportion of sugar producers, on whose pro
duce there had been a seeming, and not a real, differential
duty.
Mr. W ILSON admitted the question as to drawbacks was
an essential one. Hitherto export drawbacks had been al
lowed to two qualities of sugar—highly refined sugar, or loaf
su^ar, and the common brown sagar, the residue of the re
fining. But a practice had risen up in the trade of manufac-
turing various qualities—crushing sugars—and selling then)
in their manufactured state. It was suggested that, al-