The Morning Chronicle, May 12th 1854

^ciiuuum u a iiwiac n im u u i m u auumguoj I'UMigC 1UI ttllOUU aaeo —which in thin case could uot occur for the troops accompanied the horses— waa £C0 no that at that rate the cost of sending out the 5000 horses would be £250000 making the toul expense charged at the rate at which horses could be sent round the Cape to India and ladies and gen- tleiueu could procecd to India £2950000 being £146000 less than the amount charged for the transport of those 27000 men and 5000 horses .hear hear He had thought it advisable to look back to the expenditure under the head of transfer department informer times and he had selected as most convenient the year 1808 which was the first year a of great expenditure in the Peninsula. He found in that year wheu there was. a depreciation of the currency to tho amount of 18 percent. tho total charge for transports was £2990000 in which was included a sum of £800000 in counection with a charge for prisoners of war aud leaviug the whole sum actually paid in 1808£2100000 or about one million less than they were asked to pay this yc^r .hoar hoar They were told that never had any exertion so great been made as that which was made at the present moment aud he had thought it well to look back to see tho amount of force they had in Portugal in 1808 and he found there a force greatly exceeding in amount the force now sent out for scrvicc in Turkey. He found in the early part of the year 12000 troops bad been sent out and at a later period 5000 and that a number of men very little short of 49000 had been sent to the Peninsula aud in addition to that force there were 6696 horses so that there were nearly 1700 horses moro aud 21000 men more sent that year to the Peninsula than they had now sent to Tur­key and yet the expense was one million less than it was for this year hear h^arj. It was necessary to make some de­duction from the charge for transports in this year because there were items of undercharge that head whioh was not paid for by tho transport department in tho year 1808. lie had carefully selected all those items including au item of £160000 for coals which of course could not occur in the year 1808 and deducting those items which amounted to £293000 he found the total charge was £2800000 the total charge having been £2100000 in 1S08 so that the real difference was about £700000 hear hear If to that they added 18 percent for additions made on account of depreciation of currency they would fiud that the practical indifference real money amounted to not less than £1000000 .bear hear That justified him he considered iu asking an explanation of the items of which that large sum was composed hear hear j. lie might mention a cir­cumstance that fell under his own knowledge and which in­duced him to think that the detention of transports before soldiers were placed ou board of them might have had some effect on the great bulk of this charge. On the 8th of March he wonton board tho Palmerston and another vessel. On iu- quiriug how long they had been eugaged he found they had been engaged for ton days or a fortnight and they would have been perfectly ready to rcccive the troops in three days. That was on the 8th of March and it was not until about the 8th of April that either of those vessels sailed. The expenditure for one of those vessels was £1800 a mouth so that £1800 expense was incurred between the 8th of March and the 3th of April in consequence of the detention of that vessel. Tho cost for the other vessel was £1350 a month so that £1350 was the expense incurred in con sc- quenco of the detention ef that other vessel hear .hear hear These were only two vessels out of a great number for they were perfectly aware that the cavalry are only sailing now and he apprehended that tho vessels en­gaged to trausport them were in the hands of the Govern­ment for a considerable period .hear hear There was another matter totally distinct respecting which ho desired to put a question to tho noble duke and that was in what mauuor it was proposed by her Majesty's Government to pay the trooops m Xurkoy ?He had made such inquiry ashe could on the subject of the currency in Turkey and had as­certained that the currency is depreciate 82% percent i hear. There is there what is called a silver currency but which is copper washed with silver aud the copper appears on tho edges of tho coin and also upon the .inscription hear Not only was the currency so depreciated but he was sorry to hear it was in the course of further depreciation and the ex­change which was 125 piastres in January is now 150 piastres.1 The question was what course should be adopted in making the necessary payments to the army. He under­stood that the troops were paid in the currency of England at Gibraltar and he apprehended that the same tiling was done at Corfu but there was a difficulty in Turkey connected with their currcncy which was not connected with that of Franco. wim %tmi »iiiu nuuiu uu ho agaiu nu uou ui uui» u must no recollected that while they were onshore their absence dimi nishod the efficiency of the fleet which might be sud­denly carried into action causing the operations to be more alow than they would be if tho army had tho assistance of animals to move the stores and time in operations of this kind was essential hear .hear hear Therefore if operations were to be conducted along the shores of the Black Sea avery considerable number of animals would be required besides those of the artillery to facilitate operations hear hearj. He did not think auy great portion of their forces would bo employed in that manner but at all events some portiou might expect to be employed in the interior aud they were to consider what amount of animals were absolutely required to enable that force to move and to facilitate the operations uecessary ia the war .hear hear On the subject of the movement of an army he might be supposed to have extravagant views because in India very great embarrassment was felt in the movement of troops abut few years ago. A great general Sir Charles Napier who was perfectly aware of the embarrass­ment arising from the large amount of baggage set himself to reform that abu6e. He gave to tho world iu print his rea­soning on the subject and what he allowed for the baggago abolutely uecessary and without presuming to offer an opi­nion on the subject he (the Earl of Ellenborough) would stats to their lordships what amount of baggage Sir Charles Napier” considered to be absolutely necessary .hear hear His calculation was founded upon the supposition that the army was a combined army of uatives and Europeans and an army of that description required a smaller amount of baggage than an army consisting altogether of Europeans but he stated as an average—of couree the amount varied ac­cording to circumstances—one camel to every two men .hear hear One camel was to bo reckoned in the calcula­tion as being equal to two horses aud therefore if they were to remove 15000 men they would require 15000 animals .hear hear But beyond that Sir Charles Napier stated that there should abe roservo ot 30 percent for contingen­cies and auy person who was aware of the number of ani­mals that were left by the side of the road anon ordinary march must be satisfied that that amount of reserve was .ne­cessary hear Therefore if they moved 15000 men they would require 19500 horses to enable that army to move according to the low computation made by Sir Charles Napier. In Turney a country resembling very much apart of India they should have fifteen days provisions for their security that would require an additional amount and therefore it became a consideration of the greatest possible importance for unless means of carriage were furnished they would not have the opportunity of executing the great ope­rations of the war in the way that the country expected .bear hear Knowing the subject was of importance he begged to put a question to the noble dukey to ascertain what measures have been adopted for the purpose of furnish­ing tho army with the necessary number of .animals hear The Duke of NEWCASTLE :lean assure your lordships aad my noble friend in particular that thero is no indisposition on the part of the Government or on my part to give to my noble friend and to the house any information we possess provided we can do so consistently with our regard for the public service but it is impossible for any person except those who are carrying on those affairs to know what informa­tion can be given and what information cannot be .given (hear With regard to this very question of the movement of the troops I can assure my noble friend that under peculiar circumstances to answer that question in the only way an English Minister can answer with entire truth hear hear might be giving avery great advantage to the enemy while it would effeet no good in this country .hear hear Suppose that for the purpose of carrying on the war adequate pro­vision was made for tho movement of troops by land and nadequate provision made for their movement by water or vicc versa that inadequate provision was made for the movement of the troops by land while adequate provision was made for their movement by water—would uot the fact announced in this house how­ever that movement might he executed within the next month or six weeks be of the most essential importance to the enemy as proving what operations we could undertake and what operations we could uot undertake and enable them to provide to meet us accordingly ?hear hear I only say that in reference to the inconvenience sometimes of put­ting questions of this kind and in anticipation of my iuabi- lity on all occasions to answer such questions .hear hear That inability as regards this particular question does not exist on the present occasion and for that rea- sou I shall proceed to give to my noble friend uuiae ports irun uau not saueu from tins country many weeks ago. With regard to the Lord Palmerston willing transport to which my aoble frioud adverted that vessel took out the first detachment of artillery. It was detained fr«m causes which it is not necessary to mention for two or three days but not longer and that is the only instance of a sailing trausport engaged to convey cavalry or artillery being detained one hour in their departure by the orders of the Government or by any lathes on the part of the military authorities. As regarded the other vessel mentioned by my noble friend the Tonuing steamer it took out a body of troops to Malta who were conveyed from thence to Turkey in three steamships. The receipt of the convention with Turkey in reference to the landing of English troops in Turkey was expected whilst this portion were under orders to sail and they were detained a week or nine days waiting for its arrival after the vessel was ready to sail so that as re­gards them I think some demurrage will have to be paid. But as respects the bulk of the vessels the delay was occa­sioned in consequence of the inability of the contractors to prepare them for sea and not from any fault on the part of the military authorities or of the officers and men who were going out.With reference to the aecond question of my noble friend as to the currcncy in which the troops in Turkey are to be paid he is no doubt aware that under the standing rules of the commissariat department a general order is issued fixing the standard of the army pay which of course is regulated by the intrinsic value of Eng­lish coin and its proportion to the coin of the country to which the troops are about to be embarked. With reference to the particular currency he is no doubt awar® that for avery long period the currency of the eastern shores of tho Mediterranean was almost all carried on in tho colon- nado or pillar dollar. The diminution of this currency has of late years been very great and even four or five years ago it ww to a great extent disappearing and tho ordinary sovereign of this country to a considerable degree taking its place in many parts of the Levant and of course more espe­cially so iu those most frequented by British subjects The entire supercession of the colounado by the English sovereign has been accelerated by the enormous drain of the former coin to China. Under these circumstances it was felt to be desirable that the currency in which the troops shoull be paid should be English sovereigns and therefore an arrangement has been at once made for 6euding a supply of that coin frem this country. I believe that 225000 Euglish sovereigns have been sent to the commissariat de­partment accordingly and £500000 of English silver more as an experiment iu the direction which my noblo frieud suggested than from any practical necessity at the preseat moment. This is meaut as a temporary arrangement until the effect of the experiment has been ascertained aud in­asmuch as the troops caunot be roguiarly paid in English sovereigns it will be absolutely necessary that they should be paid in the current coin of the country where they were stationed. I am aware that ray noble friend has previously made tho suggestions on this subject which he has thrown out this evening to my right honourable frieud the Chan­cellor of the Exchequer and on the part of her Majesty's Government I have to thank him for so doing. I think there is a great deal that is very invaluable his suggestions and therefore we have transmitted a copy of them to the commissaries in Turkey accompanied with a dcsiro that they should report how far it would be possible to carry them out and whether any difficulty attaches to the plan originally devised for paying a1 1 the ac­counts in English sovereigns aud in the coin current in the country fixed in its proportion to the value of the sovereign. The last question put by my noble friend was with respect to that point which I have already touched at the com­mencement of my observations namely the means of moving our troops. My lords I can assure my noble friend- admitting to the full extent all that he has said based ou the great experience and information he has obtained by his attention to these subjects—that this matter has not been neglected nor was it overlooked at the commencement of this expedition. Orders were sent out long before any trooj embarked from this country to the commissariat officers who were early despatched to Turkey instructing them to make inquiries in all directions as to the means of obtaining animals for carriage and authorising them to make provisional contracts for purposes of transj>ort. We as long ago as the month of March— I forget now the exact day— had a report from one of the commissariat officers who stated that he had been more successful in this respect than he had first been led to anticipate and every subsequent re­port received in this country leads us to expect that although the means of transport in Turkey are not so goed as might be wouuded. Formerly these particulars arrived simultaneously with the news of the action. Consequently great anxiety would be felt for many days by the relations of persons on gaged in the war and it was most desirable that the Go­vernment should as soon as possible publish the details to the country and if they did so through the medium of the OamtU they ought not to allow four-and-twenty hours to elapse after receiving tho intelligence before they relieved the anxiety of the public mind on the subject. The Duke of NEWCASTLE: Despatches have been received this day from Admiral Dundas respecting the bom­bardment of Odessa the first announcement of which was made in this house a few days ago by my noble friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. Your lordships are already ill possession through the newspapers of this town of all tho details which are given in the despatches of Ad­miral Pundas and I believe I should be wasting your lord­ships' time if I were to read the circumstances narrated in those r»tohoH. d At the same time I thiuk I ought to mention to your lordships that this despatch and its inclosure give a fiiowt positive and satisfactory denial to the statements which have appeared in behalf of the Russian Government. Kroin tho despatch and its enclosure it appears that the Fury while Wring a flag of truce was most undoubtedly finnl upon by the batteries of Odessa and on the account of that outrage and violation of the law of nations being con­veyed to Admiral Dundas Admiral Dundas was not satisfied in a of that kind with the reports of the captain and crew however cenolusive the»e reports might be to his own mind hut he took information from another person who was prournt on tbe Mole of Odessa when the gun was shotted Slid fired. This fact is instated the daspatch and on the rto- ipt of this information Admiral Dundas wrote to General 0 tm-Sacken informing him that his excuse was found to be tittiteof <l foundation and as a reparation for the insult offered to the flag of truce lie commanded him to surrender all the Knglish French and Russian ships in that port git inf time for the Russian general to return either an assent or a refusal to the summons. No answor having been re- otivo I the bombardment took place in the manner already mentioned in the newspapers. I am happy to add to that statement that the loss on the part of the English fleet was ouly 1 man killed and 10 wounded most ef them slightly htar hear. As to the second question of the noblo earl 1 havo to state that the Government will publish the des. pate be through the Gaze 'te and that will bethe means in future of acquainting the public from time to time of the events of the war as the Government receives its intelli­gence. 1 can also assure the noble carl that in all cases of important events where the feelings and interest of the public are likely to be excited no delay will take place in makinj the news known and the Government will not wait for the usual day for publishing the Gazette abut supple­ment ul Gazette will in sueh cases be instantly .issued hear The Karl of M ALM ESBURY said that he understood the noble duke to state that the accounts in the newspapers of this event were correct. Now it appeared from the newspaper that the chief cause of the attack on Odessa war. the violation of the flag of truce. If that were so he thought ne punishment too strong to avenge such an act of bar­barism. Hut would the admiral have been eutirely justified in attacking Odessa from the moment war was declared or were they to infer that the orders to tho admiral were such that if this outrage had not been offered to the flag of truce he would not have been justified in attacking Odessa and the shipping there ashe did ?The general impression was that the admiral made this outrage the prime reason for bom­barding the port and it was desirable that that point should be cleared up. The Duke of NEW CAST LE: I thiuk the noble earl is trespassing somewhat beyond the weli-rccognised rulo in such cases in calling upon tome explain what were the instructions given to the admiral with regard to these trans­actions .hear hear The noble earl must see that the instructions given to the admiral will not bear merely upon this particular action but upon any other that may yet take place and I must therefore decline to disclose what those instructions arc. I oau assuro the noble earl ami this houje that it is the strong feeling and desire ef the Government that iu the conduct of this war private and neu.tral property should be as far as possible respected hear and that as little destruction should be caused to that pro­perty us is consistent with the effective carrying on of the operations. Tiie Earl of DES ART said there could be no second opinion among their lordships that the operations at Odessa reflected great credit on all the officers concerned. Lord CAMPBELL said that he had not the most distant intention that the bill should interfere with the enforcement of the private rights of any portion of her Majestys subjects. It was intended by the bill as originally framed to prevent such deputations as that to Florence upon the case of the Ala- diais. His own opinion was that such a proceeding was not in the exercise of any constitutional right that it was not generally speaking calculated to gain its object and that with regard to the great powers of Europe it might be attended with con­siderable danger. After hearing the opinions which had been expressed by noble lords for whom he had a sincere re­spect particularly by the noble earl opposite (the Earl of Shaftesbury) he would willingly abandon that part of the bill and would consent that the operation of his measure should be coafined t i such deputations as should seek to do what was injurious to the British empire where there should bo an intention to thwart the measure of the Government or to do that which would be productive of inconvenience to the public service. With that restriction he hoped that the bill would meet the approval of their lordships and with this restriction he moved that the select committee upon it should consist of tho Lord Chancellor the Lord President the Earl of Clarendon the Earl of Derby the Earl of Malmesbury the Earl of Ellenborough Lord Beaumont Lord Lyndhurst Lord Brougham Lord Stanley of Alderley Lord St. Leonards and Lord Campbell. In answer to the Earl of Clancarty whoso question was inaudible in the gallery Lord CAMPBELL said that he was sorry to say that the bill in its restricted form would not apply to the case of a deputation such as the recent one to St. retersburg because he believed that although the tendeucy of what the Quakers did was extremely injurious yet that their intention was perfectly harmless. The act ashe proposed to amend it would apply only to cases in which there was an intentiou to do what was wrong—such as the case of Smith O'Brien and that of the deputations supposed to have beeu sent to France in 1791. Lord BEAUMONT wished to know what was left in the biU now that the noble lord proposed that it should not apply to persons who though their proceedings might be injurious to the country had no evil intentions. It seemed to him that the act as proposed to be altered would apply to none but persons who conspired against the interests of the country who were surely punishable by the law as it at preseutstood. Lord CAMPBELL said that thero remained in the bill a great deal which was very material and which his noble and learned friend Lord Lyndhurst desired should be retaiued. The bill would togo the extent of the American law which was on all hands allowed to be salutary and in addition to this various acts which English subjects might now do abroad with perfect impunity but which were of avery mis­chievous character would be made punishable as misde­ meanours. The Earl of D ONO UGH MORE inquired of the noble lord whether the bill would interfere with the communication carried on by Roman Catholics with seethe of Rome? Lord CAMPBELL said that he believed that the bill as it originally stood would not have interfered with the spiritual intercourse between Roman Cat holies and tbesee of Rome and he was ouite certain that as it was now framed there was not the smallest possibility of its offering any obstacle to that communication. The appointment of the committee was agreed to. SPIRITUAL DESTITUTION IN THEM ANUFAC­ TURING DISTRICTS. The Earl of WINCH ILSE Arose to movo tho following resolutionThat the religious wants of the great body of the labouring classes employed in our manufacturing districts (from the extensive deficiency of church accommodation of resident clergy to administer to their spiritual necessities and of schools to afford them a sound scriptural education) demand the earliest attention of Parliament.'1 The wants assorted thin irresolution were so notorious that he might lay it upon their lordships table without saying a single word in its support for if any man either orin out of that house holding the position of a legislator admitted their existence and denied his responsibility to lend a helping hand for their removal any arguments which ne could advance would be^ quite useless for he was convinced that by such a man even a voice from heaven denouncing such a dereliction of duty to our country and to God would pass unheeded and dis­regarded. It was a notorious fact that the people of this country anxiously wished for an extension of religious know­ledge and he maintained it to be tho duty of the Legis­lature to abstain no longer from examining the case of their spiritual wants. Lot him not be told that we could havo no system of religious education because the tenets of some per­sons who disapproved of the Test and Corporation Acts were not to be its basis. We had a Christian Church connected with the State and he had since he had a seat iu their lordships house endeavoured to enforce upon them what he held to be their first duty—to provide the people with church accom­modation with resident clergy to administer to their spiritual wants and with schools to give them a sound scriptural edu­cation. He knew that in the present state of society it was impossible that any Government sheuld propose to establish in this country schools entirely connected with the Established Church. Ho did not ask that they should do so. He only asked that schools should be esta­blished in which the Bible should bo taught aud he was con- vincod that the great body of the dissenters of England especially the Wesleyans would support any Government in such a proposition. According to the last census the num­ber of persons toadded the population of this country since 1841 was 2700000 and there were two millions of persons for whom if they were disposed togo to church there was no accommodation. He was not one of those who thought that the building of churches was the first step to betaken. lie thought that schools and missionary clergy would bethe means of bringing to the churches the mass of those who had been allowed to grow up in infidelity and heathenism He could not contemplate the fearful judg- also have claims upon the Government and the Sti relief of their wants .hear hear My lords wo ear with truth say that the religion of the Church o is the religion of the people. I do not mean that the Church of England may not sti a majority a numerical majority. Neverth amount of dissent of various seots and tion is to great as justly to entitle it to all belong auto equality of means. These persons ar and loyal subjects and I say that the State is bon for their education as well as for that of the mem Church of England .hear hear My lords tho d establishing any united system of education is so j I begin to fear it must bo considered as iusuperu hear. Although the system adopted may not ha satisfactory as could have been wished I must re lordships that the State uot altogether neglected assistance for the education of all classes of all tions .hear hear My lords just look at the prog hns been made under this head by means of grant Parliament and distributed by the Committee of P cil. 1 am ready to admit that this is not the most si mode of dealing with tho subject but under tl stances I believe it was the only practicable one sand believe that the manner in which the Con Privy Council have discharged their duty throi country has given general satisfaction Thear h< My lords the system of grants made by Parliamen purpose of education commenced in the year 1S39 sum of £50000 was voted for that purpose weary your lordships by going through fronithaty the gradual augmentation of these grants but ii year the grant amounted to £260000. I dont saj is a great sum for such a purpoie. On the contrar better system can be devised I am disposed to thin bo wise to extend and even greatly increase !hour I hope we shall shortly have abetter sy all events there is a bill before the other house< ment for the purpose of establishine a general t united education Jin Scotland. Whether it will i not I am unable to say but it has at leant been i under rery favourable auspice and I cau say this does not succeed I certainly shall despair of seeing either in that country orin this a united education established hearJ. My lords do what we canto supply the wants which hate scribod by such modes as I hare outpointed and i that a judicious increase and application of grar Corain itteee ef Privy Council offers practically the 'of meeting the wants—the educational wants—of tot which the noble carl alluded .hear hear having said this I cannot seethe advantage of i earl laying upon the table such a resolution as that has proposed. No practical result can be expec derived from it. I think that nothing cau be gaine a proceeding. It is quite unusual in a parliament to lay upon the table a declaration of that sort fr no practical measure can ensue .hear hear 8yn entirely in the feelings of the noble earl on this j should be very sorry indeed to meet such a resoluti direct negative but under the circumstances I 1 lordships will permit mo to move the previous hear hear Earl NELSON :My lords I quite agrec^in mat remarks which have fallen from the noble earl that the Government and as a friend to the Church of I would be one of the first to protest against asking the .State hear We havo done a great deal be building of churches aud the erecting of church sell we must remember that there is a great want which not yet met aud that cannot be mot by the means wl hitherto been employed .hear hear It is a patent (in all our great towns in many of the manufacturing I there are masses of the population who are virtuallv excluded from the Church but are untouohed eith Church or by dissent and who are nearly iu a state of ism. Although I do not ask Government for any aid a great deal mi^ht be done by the appointmentof a sion to inquire into the best mode of meeting tho c Many of the workingmen in the country consider t Church to movo In this matte there does not appear to bo any apathy on of individuals to move in the matter. Many solitai have been made from time to time for remedying mitted grievance but they have all fallen short of gency of the case J hope that a commission wil pointed by the Government or else that the most i >olitan rnetro will call together some of his right 1 brethren some of the most influential of the laity a of the parochial clergy to discuss the mattor and remedy .hear hear I believe that the most method of combatting the irreligion which prevails the masses would be to send out a missionary stafl clergy. I believe we shall never succeed unless we pared to treat with the people as if they were in a heathenism. I bcheve that the workingmen of tl country arc favourably inclined towards the Church laud and I cau state one curious fact in corroboi that impression. Sometime ago when I was convert avery clever workingman I aaked him what 1 body had the greatest overpower bis workmc fe!low replied that some years ago he should have said ti Ieyans but since they had had a split amongst tl believed that the Church of England stood next ont but that if we wished well to the Church ef Engli ought to do all in our power to procure more clergyn it was clear to all that she was more deficient in cle in proportion to her people than any other religious b therefore am of opinion that the first thing to be do employ large bodies of clergy for real missionary worl hear. We should require funds to support anthem extended means for educating them than tko u ties now present. In this respect the Roman Catholic! land teach us a useful lesson for the way in which they
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