The Morning Chronicle, May 12th 1854

2 THE MORNIMG CHRONICLE. FRIDAY, MAY 12, 1854. I M P E R I A L P A R IilA .M E N T . HOUSE OP LORDS—Thursday. The Lord Chancellor took his seat on the woolsack about five o’clock. ^ RE FO R M A T O R Y SCHOOLS. Earl P IT Z W IL L IA M presented a petition from tho West Riding of Yorkshire, praying that reformatory schools may be established for the reformation of juvenile offenders. Lord BRO U G H AM entirely agreed in the opinion that they should make every effort for the purpose of improving the system of secondary puuishmeut, and, above all. of im­ proving it by means of these reformatory schools. lle men­ tioned lately that he had deemed it his duty, during a late visit to a neighbouring nation, to examine that most im ­ portant establishment, the refoimatory establishment at Mettray. He had heard it stated in Franco that the esta­ blishment at Mettray was the original of this excellent plan, but that waa not so, because nineteen years before the esta­ blishment of the institution at Mettray, which was established in the year 1839, namely, in the year 1820, au establishment waa formed at Stretton-on-Dunmore, in tho county of War­ wick. Ho would not say that it had succeeded so well as the Mettray system had succeeded, because Mettray was esta­ blished afier the experience of the English establishment, and its originators had benefited by that experience, as well as by the results of a similar experiment which had been mado with more or less success in the neighbour­ hood of Hamburg ; but it was impossible to deny that the amount of the relapses was less considerable there than they had been on an average of years at Stretton-on-Duumore. lie never saw anything iu auch a state of order as the esta­ blishment at Mettray was the other day, when he had an op­ portunity of seeing it, aud when ho examined that school. The whole proceedings of every individual from the moment lie enters until he leaves the establishment are registered. An accurate account is kept of his conduct and of his misde­ meanors, more or less slight, and most of them are very slight; of the rewards he has received, and the punishment, extremely ¦Light and well-contrived, to which he is subjected ; and on his leaving the establishment a watch is continued to bs kept on the place where he is hired (it is chiefly an agricultural e*- tablishment), with the farmers and gardeners in the neigh­ bourhood ; ho that the return* year after year tell precisely the whole effect of the •yatem of discipline, aud uot only of discipline, but of kindly and patriarchal management [hear, hear]. Th« P*fin wa8 to divide the whole of the inmates into famines, each having a chief who was the lead tug person of it, and the persons composing the staff of officers had been taught the system by years of expe­ rience on the spot [hear, hear]. He regretted to hear that the Stretton-on-Dunmore establishment had, within the last six weeks, come to an end from the want of funds. It had been supported during the whole period of its suc­ cessful existence of 40 years entirely by voluntary contribu­ tions, no aid whatever having been given by Government, or by any public body, and it had now failed—he was sorry and ashamed to say—entirely from the want of funds (hear, hear]. Funds for the Mettray establishment, aad similar ones in France, no doubt were furnished by private indivi­ duals ; hut very large contributions were made to them — without which they must have failed, as well as others—by the enlightened wisdom of the French Government [ hear, hear]. Earl F IT Z W IL L IA M took it for granted that if reforma­ tory schools should be established, the expenses would be paid out of the public funds ; and then came the veryiin- portant question, whether they should be maintained out of the national funds or out of the funds of the county in which they should be established. He apprehended that they would not be complying with the wishes of the peti­ tioners unless some public fund was appropriated for the maintenance of such establishments | hear, hear]. THE B R IT ISH ARM Y IN T U RK EY . The Earl of ELLEN BO RO U G H had several day* ago given notice to hit noble friend opposite, the noble duke at the head of tho war department, that he should take an op­ portunity of putting to him three questions of considerable Importance with regard to the army now employed in Turkey. Tho first question related to the expense of trans­ port of the troops to Turkey. A sum of £3,096,000 had been voted by the House of Commons for that purpose, and that appeared to him to be a startling and great amount. Commencing as they were a very expensive, a very diffi­ cult, and he feared a very long war, it appeared to him that it was thoir bounden duty to look most closely into all the details of the expenditure from the very commencement. If they merely paid a bill so Urge as that bill was with­ out looking into tho details of it, they would very soon conic into difficulties, and there would be a general reluctance on the part of the people to prosecute a war that was so expensively and perhaps so recklessly con­ ducted [hear, hear]. He saw under the head of trausport service a sum of £3,096,000 ; and, so far as he could leam from what had been stated elsewhere, 25,000 men had been sent out, and in all 27,000 men were to be sent out, and about 5,000 horses, He found that the expense for which a gen­ tleman or ln4y could proceed to India, arouud the Cape, with every possible comfort, was about £100. So that if every individual soldier had been sent to Turkey at the rate of expenditure at wsiich a gentleman or lady could conve­ niently proceed to India, the expense would be £2,700,000 If they were to be paid in English coiu, he suggested the employment of small coins, for the purpose of enabliug the soldier to go into the market with a currency more nearly resembling that of the country. He thought that silver coins of the value * of 2d. each should be distributed amongst the troops to a large extent, for j transport of the troops from this country to Turkey, and my such information an I oan, and shall take the questions in the order in which he put them [hear, hear]. The first question he put was, whother I am prepared to lay upon the table of the house the details of the estimates which have been lately voted by tho House of Commons for the it would aa nearly as possible correspond with the ourrency value of the piastre, and become au English piastre, and ! pass current in tho market [hear, hear]. Generally, if not universally, in every regiment in India the means were af- j forded of exchanging the rupee, which was found in practice ] to be a very great convenience, and the Government would uoblo friead said with great justice that the sum was a for­ midably large one, and that it required explanation [hear, hear]. Now, as a matter of account, the members of the Government will undoubtedly be bonnd to give a full and eutire account of the manner in which any money is dis­ bursed which is voted by the House of Commons for the do well to consider whether they could not iu some manner 1 furtherance ef this war ; and as to that matter of account, I give to the English auldier iu Turkey the same practical ad­ vantage as the soldiers in India derived from that arrange­ ment [hear]. The whole staff they could employ at present was the regimental paymaster, but he saw no reasou what­ ever why an arrangement should not bo made, through the commissaries in the first instance, and further through the minister at Constantinople, which would place the pay­ master in a position that would enable him to make the rate of exchange more favourable than the soldier could other­ wise obtain. He thought they should afford to the soldier the means of exchanging the small silver coin in which alone he ought to be paid for the current coin of the couutry, and that an arrangement should bo made similar to that which was the uniform practice in India [hearj. He waa aware that what he was suggesting was contrary to what were called the principles of political economy, and that it would be said that they were interfering with individual enterprise and fair competition in the m arket; but in that case attempts might be made to take advantage of the British soldier, at whioh the British soldier would be exceedingly angrjr, and the result of that exceeding anger might be that blows would be introduced as part of the ourrency in the market, and to a very considerable extent influence its operations [hear, hear]. The currency might be assisted by stilettoes ; and seeing that extreme inconvenience might arise from not assisting the soldier, he recommended the noble duke that he should take that matter into his serious consideration [hear, hear, hear]. He also begged to ask the noble duke what means of movement were provided for the army in Turkey ? He saw from the public papers that it was a common error to suppose that the moment those troops were landed with their cavalry at»d artillery the officer in command could move whenever he pleased, or wherever the exigencies of the service might require. There could not be a more grievous error [hear, hear]. He did aot state that it was an error merely on his owu authority, but he should take the liberty of reading to their lordships an extract from a letter he had received now, he was sor**y to say, nearly twenty-five years ago, from the Duke of Wellington, referring particularly to the condition of the Russian army in Turkey, for a campaign was then iu pro­ gress. He had writteu a letter to the noble duke requesting he would state to him his views as to the best mode of conducting any future war in India which they might bo forced to have recourse to, and he begged to refer to his reply in support of the statement he had made. It was of course impossible for him to judge what might be the amount of their forces in Turkey whioh might be em­ ployed in operations inland. He conld not say what part of them would remaiu in garrison at Gallipoli or at Con­ stantinople, or what portion of them would be em­ ployed iu operations on the shores of the Black Sea. That, of course, rested with the Government; but he would say, that even when their troops were in garrison, as they were considered to be, r*t Gallipoli, some animals were required for the purpose of alleviating the la­ bour of the troops, and enabling them to bring stores, am­ munition, provisions, everything they might require for their service from the shore, a distance of nearly seven miles [hear, hear]. More than that, if their troops were to be moved by sea to any place on the shores of the Black 8ea, even there animals would bo required. Though the force put ou shore should land for the purpose of besieging for' tresses, it must bring up all its provisions and ammunition from the beach, and ail the articles which men engaged in extensive operations would require must bo brought from the shora [hear, hear, hear]. Iu former times, he was sorry to say, no provision—no adequate pro­ vision— was made for the purpose of enabling their ex­ peditions to have the advantage of the use of animals to make the necessary movements. Seamen and marines, and especially seamen, were used to a groat extent, and in a way that might almost break the hearts of those men, to draw the stores, and heavy cannons and cannon balls tha can assure the noble earl that no difficulty will be thrown in the way at the proper time for this information being given (hear, hear]. But my noble friend seems to forgot when he asks for an account of those sums, that this money has not been already expended, that the transports for this sorvice have not already been paid for, that the whole proceeding is now in course of progress, and that tho greatest possible practical inconvenience might arise from giving details which would enable those with whom the Govern­ ment are iu negotiation to deal uiore advantageously for themselves but less advantageously to the public thin they can do at the present moment [hear, hear]. A great part of the sum is a matter of estimate, and with re­ gard to those parts that could be considered more in the light of accounts, so great was the haste with wnich the Govern­ ment had to take up a number of those ships, it waa impos­ sible in some instances to come to an actual arrangement with the parties as to the sum that should be paid to them, and they, to meet the wishes of the Government that no time should be lost, consented, if any difficulty should arise, that the matter is to be settled by arbitration [hear, hear, hear]. That is one case; as to the other case, three-fourths of the amount have been paid and one-fourth of tho amount has been held hack on account of some dispute that has arisen and which is not yet decided [hear, hear]. Therefore it is impossible to give my noble frioud such details as he requires, or attempt to give him any greater details than have already satisfied the House of Com­ mons [hear, hear]. I think my noble friend will see that, being as we are at this moment in the market to deal with the persons possessing these vessels for the trausport of troops, we should be neglecting the interest of the public service if we gave the details for which my noble friend calls [hear, hear]. I readily admit the amount is a formidable am ount; but, if he contrasts the expense with a former pe­ riod, he should state it as the expense fer conveying, not 27,000 troops, but 30,000 troops, as the truth is [hear hear]. My uoble friend contrasts the cost of conveying 27,000 troops to Turkey with the cost of conveying 27,000 ladies aud geutlemen to India ; but he must bear in miud that these ladies and gentlemen do not carry with them a large tonnage of ammunition and other articles which are required in the transj>ort of troops. Again, the vessels which eonvey ordi­ nary passengers to India return to this country laden with auother freight, but these transports, in the great majority of instances, have uot been taken up by the voyago (in which case the expense to the Government would have beeu ma­ terially reduced), but they wore taken up fora period of twelve mouths ; a»d the estimates had to be ba««d on the supposition that the vessels would be required for the whole of that time. Thus my noble friend will see that the com­ parison he has made falls at once to the ground, under the circumstances to which I have | referred. My noble friend said that he was led to form a bad opinion of the mode iu which these affairs have been conducted, and of tho lavish expenditure incurred upon them, by facts that he had personally witnessed, with reference to the detention of two vessels—the Lord Palmerston and another—which he had seen at Woolwich; and he said that he was afraid tho cavalry transports stood in the samo category, having boon taken up for many weeks, and yet only putting to sea at this moment. Now this is certainly the fact, but the Government will not have to pay for the delay, because tho detention of these transports was not owing to the fault of the Government or the cavalry officers and troops, but rested with the contractors who provided the vessels. Although, undoubtedly, the ships had been taken up many weeks ago, the contracts had not been fulfilled ; and this arises, I admit, from many circum­ stances which involve no blame on the part of the contrac. tors—such os the strike among the oarpeuters by whom the ships have to be fitted out, and the desertion of the sailorH, who are attracted by the highor wages given for tho voyages to Australia aud elsewhere. All these circumstances mitigated Kuy rulpftbilit obtained in other countries, there will be sufficient in point of quantity, and there certainly will not be the difficulty ori­ ginally apprehended. With tho single exception of a very small transport corps organised in this country, the whole of the remainder will bo conducted by Turkish subjects, assisted by the Turkish Government ; and only this morning a letter was received from a commissariat officer, in which appear these words :—“ The Turkish Go­ vernment acts with good faith and loyalty towards us in matters relating to transport aud supplies.” He also states that every means is takeu to provide the troops with baggage horses, which are abundant, aud baggage mules, which are much less abundant aud more expensive, and also with baggage waggons. Oa the other hand, as I have already explained to ray noble friend, we are also pro­ vided with transports for the conveyance of troops by sea. We have at our disposal permanently in those seas transports for an amount of force equal to at least 30,000 men, with­ out encroaching on the resources possessed by our ships of war for carrying out effectually any operations which they may undertake. I hope, therefore, that my noble friend will feel satisfied that this important matter has not been neglected. As regards other points, I am not able to give him now the estimates for which he asks ; but I can assure him that wo shall have no hesitation, at the proper time, to satisfy Parliament aud the country as to the mode iu which wo havo expended the money that has been so liberally voted by the House of Commons. Before sitting down, I will just mention—although m o question has been asked with respect to it— that I have had an intimation from noble lords, that in some quarters there is an apprehension that the state of the health of the troops at Gallipoli is such as to cause considerable anxiety. I cau give the most posi­ tive contradiction to any such statcmeut* that may havo gone forward. The nomber of troops at Gallipoli is 6,300 men ; and out of this force, by a letter I have re­ ceived, dated the 25th of April, I find that there were only twelve men sick, and by another letter dated the 30th of April, and received this morning, there were only twenty men sick. Such a small proportion of invalids in a force of 5,300 men is hardly to bo found iu the records of any country, or even in the records of this country itself [hear, hear]. I have thought it necessary to mako this statement to your lordships, in order to oorrect misappre­ hension. The Earl of ELLEN B O RO U G H said as the noble duke had alluded to the health of the troops, he wished to say a word respecting the comfort of the wounded. He saw that the Government had devoted attention to providing waggons for a travelling hospital. He had no doubt that iu passing over good macadamised roads these waggons would cause the least possible aggravation of the sufferings of the wounded ; but us the troops would have to go up rocks and rugged hill country, it would be impossible that these waggons could follow them. Unless coolies were employed for the assist­ ance of the wounded, they might depend upon it that men who had been injured would be left to die ou the field of battle, and many others would have their sufferings in­ creased. The Duke of NEWCASTLE should bo Borry if there wore any misapprehension on this subject. Great pains had been takeu in organizing an ambulance establishment, and this was the first time that auch a provision had been made for an English army. It was quite possible that in many parU of Turkey these waggons would not be available ; but at the same time it had been thought desirable to scud them out, in order that they might be useful where the roads were fit for them. This part of tho arrangements would uot inter­ fere with auy other suggestion ; and certainly whatever fault might be found with the other measures, the medical and hospital departments had been most effectually provided, and a much larger staff of surgeons had been sent out with this expedition than had ever been the case before. BOM BARDM ENT OF ODESSA. The Earl of M ALM ESBURY wished to asked the noble duke whether her Majesty's Government had received from the admiral iu the Black Sea any official account of the bombaidment of Odessa, and if so, whother they would take any steps tor announcing the details of the operations to the public ? He also desired to ask, with regard to the proceed­ ings of the war generally, whether tho Govarmneut intended to inform the public of events as they occurred, because there must be greater anxiety in the public mind relative to tho news of this war than there was during former wars. We had now the electric telegraph—a new invention, which mul­ tiplied, and must multiply, falsa news from Turkey. Airain, T H E M IL IT IA . The Duke of NEW CASTLE laid on the table a bill to amend the Militia Act in two respects—first, to enable the Government to embody the militia in time of war instead of only iu time of invasion, as provided in the existing ac t; and secondly, to enable them to extend the period of training the militia beyond 28 days. The noble duke then gave no­ tice that he would to-morrow (this day), at one o'clock, move the suspension of tho standing orders, to enable the bill to pass through all its stages and receive the royal assent by commission the same day. There were one or two regimeuts of militia whose period of training expired under the exist­ ing acton Monday next, and these were regiments which, for thosakeof convenience, it was desirable to embody first, and if this bill did not receive the royal assent till Monday it would be too late. This was the reason why it was necessary for him to move the suspension of the staudiog orders to­ morrow. E X C H E Q U E R BILLS (£16,024.100) BILL. This bill was road a second time, and the standing orders having beeu suspended in its favour, it passed through its re­ main! ag stages. NUISANCES REM O V A L AND DISEASES PR E V E N ­ TION ACT FU RT H ER AM EN DM ENT B ILL. The amendments to this bill were roported. EPISCOPAL AND CAPITU LA R ESTATES M A N A G E ­ MENT (1854) B ILL. On the order of the day for the second reading of this bill, The Bishop of O X FO R D said there was one provision iu this measure savouring of the prinoiplo of the bill, to which he had an objection. In the bill which this was intended to be a continuance of, and to be enacted for three years, it was provided, that it a reversion of tithes, or lend in lieu of tithes, were to be sold, as a previous condition of such sale the ecclesiastical commissioners should be required to take the present spiritual wants of tho district into consideration. Now, by the present bill, this condition, which operated in the nature of a safeguard for the claims of particular locali­ ties, iu regard to spiritual instruction, was altogether omitted ; and on that ground he objected to the measure in it< present shape. The Earl of POW IS thought tho time had come when Parliament should receive some satisfactory account of the manner in which the church commissioners had administered their trust. The commissionets, on their appointment, proceeded to make very large annual augmentations to the poorer benefices, and with the view of forestalling the provision for future generations for the benefit of the imme­ diate present, they received power to borrow from Queen Anne’s Bounty the sum of oue million, upon the supposition that the property which they managed after 30 years would become so valuable as to euable them to repay the loan. Yet from that day to this Parliament had neverbeeu furnished wiih accounts that would euable it to judge whether these calcula­ tions were real or fictitious. £10,000 was the utmost limit stated (at the period wheu this great loau was made)as the pro­ bable amount by which their revenue would exceed their payments, and yet from the time the money was borrowed their receipts had only been bettered by £500 a-year. At present the episcopal portion of the account, which was formerly favourable, *as very unfavourable, nearly £10,000 more having been paid to the smaller sees than had been received from tho larger ones. In the accounts of tike pre­ sent year some attempt had been made to distinguish bo- tweeu revenue and capital, but at best this attempt was very imperfect. His complaint was, that between the years 1837 and 1853 there was not a vestige of such information; and that their lordships were, therefore, in ignorauce whether or not the commissioners had mado au extravagant amount of an­ nual grants, or whether they were still acting within the prudent margin of £10,000 a year, which was the proposed basis of their operations. Iu the accounts hundreds of thousands of pounds received from tho sale of estates were mixed up with the annual receipts from vested estates, so that it was impossible to tell which wag capital and which income. If, therefore, they were going to renew the term of the church estate committee, to which he had abstractedly no objection, they ought to have some understanding that proper and deoent accounts should be submitted to Parlia­ ment. If he were tola that it would be very difficult to dis­ tinguish between capital and iueome, his answer was that it was high time that the difficulty should be grappled with, and that this was a distinction which waB made every day in the Conrt of Chancery. The accounts were utterly defec­ tive ; they did not give the information to which Parliament were entitled ; they did not enable auy one to tell whether the Church property had been improved or diminished in value since the appointment of this committee, or to form any opiuion as to the prudence or accuracy of the calcula­ tions on which its operations had been founded, and he trusted that the Government would givo Parliament some security that more specific, accurate, and iutelligiblt accounts should in future years be submitted to Parliament. The Earl of C H IC H EST ER, who was almost inaudible in the gallery, was understood to say that for a considerable number of years the church estates commission Lad in­ curred no expenditure for grants except such as were obli­ gatory under acts of Parliament ; but that calculations whioh had b<»en made justified the hope that in a few years tho commissioners would be able to resumo tho making of grants. Ho to a great extent agreed with the noble earl (Earl Powis) that the kind of account to which he referred would be a useful document; but he denied that fuller accounts could he published. The accounts now published were as com­ plete as they could be, but they were not on the plan desired by his noble friend. That plan, if adopted, might not be so satisfactory to the house as it was to his noble friend, and he had rather therefore pause before altering the present system. The bill was then read a second time. ment which, in the shape of famine, pestile: had, within the last few years, fallen upcu < out, as Christian and responsible men, asl had not given some cause tor these visit* declared that the first duty of this country fully neglected. He blamed no particula this —he blamed the Legislature itself—an that the greatest of our national sins had b the spiritual wants of the poorer classes o He would not believe that the noble lord * Government would refuse him permission » tion upon tho table. He knew how fully tl Majesty's Government must be occupied war would bring upon the country, and I asked their lordships to acknowledge the i evil, trusting that, at a suitable time, th their aiost earnest attention, and make fe to amend it. The Earl of A B ERD EEN : My lords, ] sorry to appear to say anything at variance tho resolution whioh the noble earl has mi that he has said I readily assent. It is diffici the amount of spiritual destitution which \ parts of the country, particulaily in our facturing towns. I know the ssaland since earl in his endeavours to meet this evil, and, i in many of the sentiments which he has cxpn assent to the motion which he has made for this resolution; but I would submit to the when he moves this resolution, it musthurt practical view. It cannot be the mere bai which he has embodied in that resolution th He must propose it with the view vhat Parlia iu consequence of the resolution [hear, hi lords, I cannot undertake to say that I thiol bable that Parliament would be induced to ciency of church accommodation of whic plained by grants made for that purpo* should be very uuwilling to propose to ! such measure. Aud, indeed, agreeing I do as to the amount of religious de the extent of the want of church i I think we have great reason to congratula the efforts whioh have of late years been mad deficiency. In the latter part of tho first half individuals have done so much to supply ti show that a great deal more may be done i than by looking to the assistance of tlie G will call your lordships’ attention to what has I the commencement of the present century, ii the great increase of energy and activity on t members of the Church of England to supply remedy the evil complained of by the nob 1801 to 1811 the number of churches built in Wales was only 55 ; during the next ten yeai to 97 ; between 1821 and 1831 the number t between 1831 and 1841 the number increase in the ten years preceding the last census churches built in England and Walea amoui The great increase which has taken place will years has been effected without Government ai by the exertions and piety and zeal of the This great amount does not iuclnde that w carried to a very great extent—the restoration and improvement of churches which has take the same period. This i* only the number of cl have actually been built. Now, my lords, t.h» churches having been built by private excitions individual exertions—contrasts favourably v d»ne by the Government at the time the Go affording aid for the bnildiug of churches on tl of my noble friend ou the cross-bench (the Ea bury). But the churches built by the commisi these circumstances, were built, generally speafc providently [hear, hearj, and at a most irrati [hear], and the funds so granted were very appropriated [hear, hear]. During the first of this century 500 churches were built of £3,000,000 sterling—£1,152,000 boiug si the public funds, and tho remainder I benefactious [hear, hear, hear]. During the years there were no public grauts for fresh i anu yet £5,500,000 were spent,’and 2,029 churcl during that period [hear, hear]. So that dun since the cessation of public grants, the effi remedy for the evil complained of by the noble < immeasurably increased [hear, hear]. I mus spirit does exist at this moment to supply the re of the labouring poor to a greater extent than hi existed in my memory [hear, hear]. The dcsii those wants is still on tlie increase, ?md I have n private efforts will provide more effectually for tion which now exists than fifty Government j, hear!. I may call your lordships' attention to the which have been made by individuals in this ca great and necessary duty— which, with the noble It to be [hear, hear]. During the time the rig prelate,*ho i* now absent, has presided over politan district, more than 200 churches have in his diocese [hear, hear]. The noble carl sa not only the building of churches that is require say, however, that that is the first object, for a never yet been built without very spedily drawin walls a congregation, and therefore I consider th most advantageous way of supplying the defic plained of is the building of churches [hear, hen dition to this the noble earl has referred to the sound scriptural education. Now, what tho noble by a sound scriptural education, of course, i» an according to the doctrines of the Church o f- I
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